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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2017, 21:09 
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1) Should countries have borders? Can these borders be physical or just legal? Should a country be able to arbitrarily deny certain groups or types of people due to certain circumstances?

2) How many immigrants should a country accept and who should decide this number?

3) are all kinds of immigrants based on race/religion/education/etc equally good/bad? Should a country distinguish one type of immigrant to be better than another type for its national interests?

4) Is visiting a foreign country you're not a citizen of a privilege or a right? Is receiving welfare from a country you're not a citizen of, in which you work and live but dont pay taxes, a privilege or a right or illegal?

5) Is any country in the world responsible to accept immigrants from other countries who are fleeing their home countries?

6) Are immigrants more often than not the most ambitious and energetic portion of the population in their original country?

7) When a country has many talented people leaving, is this country better off or worse off?

8) What is ths percentage of PHD students are immigrants in US in hard sciences like math/engineering/IT ? Silicone valley? Do you feel that the home country of these talented immigrants is now deprived of their talent because they came to US?

9) Who benefits/loses more from Mexican immigrants to US, mexico or USA?

10) is the fact that USA was founded by immigrants relevant? Which country in the world was not founded by immigrants?

11) if USA was founded by immigrants, should we open our borders completely and get rid of any visa or any otther restrictions to enter this country?

12) Is it harder for an Iranian to get into the US, or for an ordinary american or russian like me to get into Iran?

13) Is USA the only country with such seemingly strict immigration control?

14) Can you name a few other western first world countries which would be much easier to get into for a muslim, legally?

15) Should trump be deposed or she he resign after he was democratically elected?


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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2017, 21:36 
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I like surveys! I will take your thought experiment and gleefully test my assumptions
Arty wrote: 1) Should countries have borders? Yes.
Can these borders be physical or just legal? Yes. Israel is the case in point of a physical, military and legal/illegal border.
Should a country be able to arbitrarily deny certain groups or types of people due to certain circumstances? Depends on the local laws, and whatever international treaties that country signed.[/url]

2) How many immigrants should a country accept and who should decide this number? In the U.S., it would be illegal to have a quota of min/max, per 1965 immigration laws signed by LBJ..

3) are all kinds of immigrants based on race/religion/education/etc equally good/bad? Depends on the nationalist's ideology of that country.
Should a country distinguish one type of immigrant to be better than another type for its national interests? Under normal circumstances, a country would want to absorb the highly educated migrants and be the the beneficiary of another country's brain drain.

4) Is visiting a foreign country you're not a citizen of a privilege or a right? A privilege, unless that country signed some kind of treaty to allow Free Travel. EU's internal free-travel is such.
Is receiving welfare from a country you're not a citizen of, in which you work and live but dont[sic] pay taxes, a privilege or a right or illegal?Any entitlement would be a privilege until a law stated as rights. In states like California and Hawaii, you don't have to be a citizen to receive housing or utility assistance. State laws said you just have to meet a certain requirement. In some cases, been of a certain age would do.

5) Is any country in the world responsible to accept immigrants from other countries who are fleeing their home countries? Depends on the laws or treaties that country signed with others. Next would be local laws. If none existed, there is no obligation.

6) Are immigrants more often than not the most ambitious and energetic portion of the population in their original country?LOL...This one. Depends on which demographic group and which era they arrived. South Asians, Indian in particular, has been very ambitious and energetic. The Hmong, according to a New York State survey, is the least wealthy group of Asians due to the basic hardship and pre-migrant conditions like poor education background.

7) When a country has many talented people leaving, is this country better off or worse off? Ask them. Is India better off with their brain drain?

8) What is ths percentage of PHD students are immigrants in US in hard sciences like math/engineering/IT ? Silicone valley? Do you feel that the home country of these talented immigrants is now deprived of their talent because they came to US? I don't have that data at hands

9) Who benefits/loses more from Mexican immigrants to US, mexico or USA?LOL. The US benefit more with the Mexican migrants and Mexico benefited much more of remittance.

10) is the fact that USA was founded by immigrants relevant? No. The US never quite embrace migrants as ideals have projected. Case in point was the German. All was love and kind until wars with Kaiser, and later, Hitler, questioned these migrants' presence.
Which country in the world was not founded by immigrants?None. All were tribes, moving from place to place until the concept of Nation-State took hold.

11) if USA was founded by immigrants, should we open our borders completely and get rid of any visa or any otther restrictions to enter this country?Should we? No. Doing so would undermine the concept of Nat/Sec and trust in the government from people who are xenophobic. We need these to buy-in. Immigration policy is also a diplomacy lever that could be used as a bargaining chip; see US-Autralia relations.

12) Is it harder for an Iranian to get into the US, or for an ordinary american or russian like me to get into Iran? I can't be sure of the Russo-Persian protocols in regard to immigration. But so far, the difficulty between US-Iran in terms of immigration---it would be relatively easier for the Persians to come into the US than vice versa. (relatively speaking that is).

13) Is USA the only country with such seemingly strict immigration control? Nope. Not by far. Japan's policies, imho, is much stricter.

14) Can you name a few other western first world countries which would be much easier to get into for a Muslim, legally? My impressions would be Canada and Australia. I am not fully familiar with Europe so I can't say for certain.

15) Should trump be deposed or she he resign after he was democratically elected? LOL. Doing so won't solve the issue with the right-wing ideology. As bad as it seemed the last three weeks, it would be better to see his policies applied and tested and be judged on their pass/fail results.


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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2017, 22:46 
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euryleia wrote:


9) Who benefits/loses more from Mexican immigrants to US, mexico or USA?LOL. The US benefit more with the Mexican migrants and Mexico benefited much more of remittance.

When mexicans send back to mexico their earned dollars, the mexicans must spend these dollars on American goods, thus investing into america. Is this good or bad for america or both?


14) Can you name a few other western first world countries which would be much easier to get into for a Muslim, legally? My impressions would be Canada and Australia. I am not fully familiar with Europe so I can't say for certain.

So you believe it is " Much Easier" for a muslim to immigrate to Canada or Australia than to US? Why then arent these two countries flocked with muslims?
[/quote]

Why are you against america temporarily banning or restricting visas to 7 small countries which happen to have a small (relative to other countries) # of muslims?


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PostPosted: 06 Feb 2017, 23:03 
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euryleia wrote:


9) Who benefits/loses more from Mexican immigrants to US, mexico or USA?LOL. The US benefit more with the Mexican migrants and Mexico benefited much more of remittance.

When mexicans send back to mexico their earned dollars, the mexicans must spend these dollars on American goods, thus investing into america. Is this good or bad for america or both?

Not all dollars made in the US returned to the Mexico economy. The dollars that stayed in the US went to local goods like Wal-Mart, Fiesta, and other grocery stores.


14) Can you name a few other western first world countries which would be much easier to get into for a Muslim, legally? My impressions would be Canada and Australia. I am not fully familiar with Europe so I can't say for certain.

So you believe it is " Much Easier" for a muslim to immigrate to Canada or Australia than to US? Why then arent these two countries flocked with muslims?

They did.
The case against the ban is the question of legality. On the question of humanity we have serious obligations to those helping us when we ask them to fight with us.

Some of these visa holders were military interpreters as well as pathfinders. Regardless of how you see the situation, when the previous administration approved of their visa, and an incoming one revokes the previous agreements, that new government is acting on bad faith. There's isn't a diplomatic protocol breaking here because the visa is between US and the individuals, but it feeds into the fable that the US is negating on its previous promises.

ISIS could exploit this. It also has a vivid painting of how the US is hostile to Islam, and they are mujahedin as they claimed. Why make them martyrs? Why elevate them to that propaganda level and help them boost their ranks and files?


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2017, 00:22 
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euryleia wrote:
euryleia wrote:




Not all dollars made in the US returned to the Mexico economy. The dollars that stayed in the US went to local goods like Wal-Mart, Fiesta, and other grocery stores.

I dont understand. Or maybe you dont understand. Do you understand the concept that a US dollar benefits the US the same regardless where it is spent? If you spend a USD in Mexico, that dollar will eventually be used to buy a product of US or just end up in the mexican bank and the mexican bank will use that dollar to buy a US good.



So you believe it is " Much Easier" for a muslim to immigrate to Canada or Australia than to US? Why then arent these two countries flocked with muslims?

They did.
Are you saying Australia or Canada has a substantially higher amount of muslims(either total or per capits?)


Regardless of how you see the situation, when the previous administration approved of their visa, and an incoming one revokes the previous agreements, that new government is acting on bad faith. There's isn't a diplomatic protocol breaking here because the visa is between US and the individuals, but it feeds into the fable that the US is negating on its previous promises.

When someone enters into a visa or alien contract with the US, the contract allows the US to terminate the terms at its will (I am pretty sure but not 100% sure). If the US decides to exercise what is written in the contract, is that still acting on bad faith?


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2017, 00:51 
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I dont understand. Or maybe you dont understand. Do you understand the concept that a US dollar benefits the US the same regardless where it is spent? If you spend a USD in Mexico, that dollar will eventually be used to buy a product of US or just end up in the mexican bank and the mexican bank will use that dollar to buy a US good.
This is our misunderstanding. Of course where the dollar spent makes no difference unless you want mercantilism. I stopped short of answering your question of "good or bad" because it's a non-starter for me.
Are you saying Australia or Canada has a substantially higher amount of muslims(either total or per capits?)
Are we talking about immigration policies post-EO? Because if that EO enters the stream, then for 7 of those countries, Canada and Australia or any of the first world country would be easier to enter. But if you are talking about this pre-ban then Canada wouldn't be "much easier" but just equal. As to why Canada and Oz don't get more people entering the country, how much of the answer has to do with who promised them what or which country has their relatives as sponsor?
When someone enters into a visa or alien contract with the US, the contract allows the US to terminate the terms at its will (I am pretty sure but not 100% sure). If the US decides to exercise what is written in the contract, is that still acting on bad faith?
So the US has all the rights reserved to revoke visas. This is never something up for challenge. What challenged is the reasons behind the revoke. If it is willy-nilly as the EO made apparent, then yes it is done in bad faith. I don't have the exact details on verbal/written agreement from the US forces and their military helpers of foreign descent. My assumption here is based on the stories coming out from families of soldiers based out of Ft. Braggs, NC.


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2017, 01:01 
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Not all dollars made in the US returned to the Mexico economy. The dollars that stayed in the US went to local goods like Wal-Mart, Fiesta, and other grocery stores.
Lets call it $24 Billion that goes back to Mexico.


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2017, 01:29 
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diz wrote:
Not all dollars made in the US returned to the Mexico economy. The dollars that stayed in the US went to local goods like Wal-Mart, Fiesta, and other grocery stores.
Lets call it $24 Billion that goes back to Mexico.
As far as I understand it makes no difference whatsoever, economically for US, if whether those dollars are in mexico or in america because they will eventually be used to buy US goods anyways

theoretically, you can take 500 billion USD and just burn them, or give them to some country in africa, and over a long term it shouldnt have an impact on US economy (aside from the inflation rate going down in the case of burning)


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2017, 01:57 
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We see that Americans have a great understanding of how Economics work.

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http://graphics.wsj.com/investment-banking-scorecard/


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PostPosted: 07 Feb 2017, 02:01 
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Feel free to chime in and correct.


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