Marine Arena


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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 16:32 
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stronger heroes will not make the game snowball more. they will do the exact opposite because heroes are a way to come back into the game. just imagine if we had no heroes and someone got fed and upgraded marines. then there would be almost no way to come back while now you can get a ht or colossus or something else. stronger heroes are exactly what we need to stop snowballing. only thing weak heroes create is the possibility for bad players to win even though there are much better players in the game.

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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 16:34 
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they are still much too tanky. its simply not fun to have to play vs base defences. i think they should atleast have a 6 second build time (with the exception of missile turret because that is often used not to camp but to bait elites in and then place the tower to kill the elites /air mass). this would prevent the use of cannons to snipe siege tanks as easily as they do nowadays because their single target damage is still very high

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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 17:44 
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Current heroes are able to snowball because they are weak?!?!
Stronger heroes if they are able to make a comeback for a team having a medium bounty difference, what is stopping them from getting big feed x2 more times early game vs pubs?

Snowball is happening due to play style differences (pro vs amateurs or decent players), this is the biggest reason of why teams are able to get such a big difference in bounty.
If we give an even stronger hero to a pro player, the results will not increase, but instead reduced?!?
Sorry but this just doesnt make sense, since currently, its clear obvious, all the nerfs that took place in all latest updates, it was because units were able to snowball big time, and still there's units able to do that and this is what we want to remove as much as possible.

When a player was able to take an infestor hero (when it was OP by a lot), and start getting big bounty differences, this was because the hero was way much stronger than it is now, and making a comeback was not possible, even for a good player.

But right now, infestor is way more balanced and can reward a team the extra feed having this micro spell caster hero, but without having the previous big snowball.

Giving a build time to base defenses, sure this can be implemented and make all of them have a short build time.


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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 18:28 
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Battle.net ID: Eyyo#21790
@raiden
From what i hear it seems like you are afraid of making heroes/ellites so powerful so that they will snowball unless the others play heroes as well. But wouldnt it be wonderful if everyone played heroes/ellites due to them being a must pick? It would make the game much more enjoyable and interactive. To me it feels better to lose to someone playing heroes because then i know that i had my chance to snipe their heroes (or just emp if its a spellcaster) and if i failed to, well then i didnt play too well. But if someone got fed on units there is nothing i can do. In my opinion heroes and ellites are only healthy for the game and should be must picks just like mercs are. A player that controls marines, mercs and heroes should be rewarded compared to someone who just plays marines & mercs.

Just like gonor said, heroes are the way to combat snowballed players and a game filled with heroes leaves you with a feeling that you could also have done something. If new players dont want to play heroes because they are difficult and they cant avoid overextending and thus getting it killed, should they really be winning games anyways?


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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 18:45 
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@eyyo
Not at all :)
The gameplay you are talking about is one of premade/pro play which as much as i want all players to play like this, unfortunately since there is not any kind of matchmaking for Arcade section, this cannot take place.
Not all play the same, and there is a very thin line between a "public/unexperienced play & a pro play", which in all games is solved by putting players to play against other players of the same skill/rank level.
Otherwise you would see a bronze ladder player against a GM one, which ofc we all know who will win.
New players need to learn the game but first of all they must have a good experience and understand what they are doing.

Heroes are rewarding the team's having them, most of the times they win if they manage to control/micro a hero very good and gain a lot of feed out of that hero. But we must keep in mind that a new player will first needs to understand the game and for that sometime is required, already is very hard for a new player to win a game (even after playing 20-30 games in a row), lets not make it harder but instead balance this out as much as is possible.

I agree into a hero pick for each player/team, a hero should be a standard thing for any team to begin with, but this is not happening and thats a fact.

To remain on topic, shorter game durations can be a good thing without changing the game, since if a 45 min SD will be implemented as a 1st option, some balance changes need to take place first, not big ones, but still they are required, in order to make this work properly.


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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 19:36 
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so, if an arena god with 80% winratio is facing a guy that is ranked bronze with 10% winratio who do you think will win? everyone will guess the arena god obviously. but what if the bronze guy got fed a lot so he has very strong marines. now; if heroes were good the arena god could outplay him with for example ht or infestor but if those are very weak, so weak that they are pretty much useless, then the noob player will be able to roll over the arena god even if the arena god is super much better. that is snowballing. an arena god beating a bronze ranked player right from the start is just how it should be. dont dumb ma down so that bad players will win equally much as good players.

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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 19:43 
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also +1 eyyo again. a game where people actually need elites and heroes would be super fun to play since it would actually take skill and not only luck of the draw (being next to the noobs = luck)

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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 19:44 
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I disagree with you saying that heroes being a must pick in pres. In fact i dont really see heroes being very dominant in high level pres at all. Now i dont have a massive amount of experience from the high level ooe pres but from what i've seen since i started playing pres this year is that only ghosts and ellites are at the level where they are used on every (serious) team. Even though it is not uncommon to see someone bring out a collo or something, it cannot be called the norm which i think that it should be. Now if someone has a lot of high level pre experience, please correct me if im wrong.

If anything i would say that there is less hero (appart from ghosts) play in (high level) pres due to the strength of double ghost (which are typically always ran because of the power nukes and quad emp vs enemy ghosts). Thus you can definitely find yourself in a game with 8 ghosts on the field and then a hero is going to have a heard time paying for itself, not to mention how weak u are the minute after its dead. Here some people may argue that units/heroes shouldnt be powerful if there are a lot of its counters (ghosts) on the field but the problem is that ghosts are so strong that they are run in "every" game. Thus driving heroes out of the premade meta.

Now that at least ghosts are seeing play is to me a good start since they introduce a lot of skill into the game (im not necessarily asking for a ghost nerf) but i would also want damage heroes, especially ht which takes the most skill to be a part of the meta


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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 19:53 
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as a guy with a lot of high level premade experience i can say that 1 colo + 1 ghost can be very good. however most other heroes are completely useless. the raven pdd can completely neutralise a hightemplar or festor so they are only usefull vs people with little game knowledge and bad splitting skills.

nixes are also used some but not that much as they are only bought to counter thors which people get sometimes. thors arent that good anymore either though.

heroes should be high risk high reward not high risk low reward as they are now.

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PostPosted: 04 Aug 2018, 20:16 
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@eyoo
A maximum rank level MA player, will never let a bronze one with 10% get that ahead, unless all the other teams are feeding on purpose the bronze and avoiding the highest ranked player.
A Player having 10% or even 20% winratio, cannot compare to someone with 80%, first of all, the ways the highest lvl player have to gain feed, are much more than the lowest ranked player.
And this is something many players have faced before, having other lowest rank teams being in lead, but with good hero play (current heroes), or certain tactics, they managed to turn the game into their own.

Hero play should be there and all players would be good to learn how to proper use heroes.
The game is not only hero or elite related, but these extra units are a good way to gain some nice early game feed.

Snowball comes when a unit/s are able to give a lot of bounty, even with high effort, doesnt mean a unit should give a lot of extra income to a player/s. For a 10% bronze player to be able to snowball, then that player either got a lot of on purpose feed or got feed from a player that doesn't know what to do, which is not something that is happening often.
Still a good player is able to see that and will do something about it, so comparing a good experienced player to a new unexperienced one, doesn't lead anywhere because we all know the results.

Hero being able to dominate is not something that i said its happening only on premade games, there, the amount of feed even from heroes is reduced since players know the game and they know who/what to avoid, but in public games heroes like colossus and spell casters are able to dominate very easily.

Ghosts can be very good, specially if a player knows how to play a ghost hero, but biggest issue with ghosts comes on how easily they can kill certain heroes, specially if you get x2 ghosts.

But we go way offtopic with these so its better to create a new thread and keep it there.


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