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 Post subject: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2018, 17:19 
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If you do not feel personally attacked by the following then it is not for you, if you do feel attacked by it though, make sure to give the first part some thought.

I will be quite frank with you and say anyone who believes units should be scaled according to potential value ( i am not saying to completely leave strong abilities like blink out of the equation ) which may be reached after 100s or 1000s of hours playing that given unit and acquiring a very high eapm then please go seek a psychiatrist. stalkers have been nerfed so hard the number of players who can play them successful in a pre nowadays i can count on my hands ( i am not being arrogant this is just based on observation ) and i will also add wit great disappointment that i get quite upset if a 5 apm dessie player gets kills on my stalkers that i micro till my fingers bleed just because two of his shots kill a stalker while he is half my bounty. but units like stalkers and crawlers which require high apm are exactly what makes this game so entertaining because we can never reach its skill-cap. If we continue balancing for a noob and against good players who actually use the full potential of units we will end up with any standard pub beating a tier 1 team in a lucky shot with some a-move golis and an ultra ( which has already happened by nerfing comeback potential in this game many times over )

I am not saying units like stalkers or crawlers should lack counters but I AM saying that those counters should require more than 5 apm for a constant a-move.
There are lots of abilities around star craft and we can always come up with new but give those counters some micro requirements to be a counter.

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 Post subject: Re: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2018, 17:42 
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So mutch wisdom From such a young Crow.

Well i agree 100 %


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 Post subject: Re: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2018, 22:06 
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Battle.net ID: Eyyo#21790
My philosophy is that a game should generally be balanced around the highest level of play. However im not sure if i agree on you with stalkers and crawlers. I really like skill based units like ghost, ht etc. If you play perfectly you will kill/emp their ghosts and then ur ht can roam free and give you great trades vs the enemy army. This also encourages multitasking - using many different units and also balancing army micro with the ghost battles etc. And even if you are outplayed you can still at least kill something, to get the last minerals you need to get a ghost for another try lets say.

Now as for stalkers and crawlers i think we should be careful. While i do think its obvious that good play should be rewarded, i also have the question: In a game of MAs lets say 8 best players, would we want that game to consist of 8 stalker/crawler players? The issue i have with those units is that they in theory just dont die. And sure, the stalker player is good and all, but the other player failing to trade fairly vs stalkers cant do that much either with a pure army. And then if stalker/crawlers would be so rewarding when played well and everyone plays them, well nothing dies ^^. It would just slow down the game so much and make it worse in my opinion. Now stalkers i dont have that much of a problem with since the phantom counter works, stun prohibits their blink and the extra damage make them trade well just as i imagine crow meant with that there should indeed be counters.

As for crawlers though, these are generally considered good vs phantoms due to their vulnurability to splash. I guess you could try to give crawler's counters a way to stop them from burrowing or something but as of now, i dont think a crawler meta would be fun. Sure it would feel good for a top player stomping mediocre ones but 8 ppl playing crawlers would be stale. Yes you can get like double collo but i dont think there should be a ground merc in the game that trumps all other ground mercs in army vs army. At least with air, if you counter them and they start losing, they will lose a lot, and if they lose their critical mass they need a lot of time to function properly again. Playing air vs double thor or against dt-dropship-gols is a lot more punishing of mistakes than playing crawlers vs double collo. Air has an all or nothing mechanic wheras buffed meta crawlers in my eyes would be be more of "all or something". Losing a bunch of stalkers/crawlers wouldnt have the same effect either as losing half ur air mass.

Besides, you are a forum moderator, no? You are good at presenting arguments, you dont need sink down to insults. Seems honestly quite odd to start off saying that people that dont agree with you are "in need of a psychiatrist" on a forum about well, discussing different points of views. Cheers ~


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 Post subject: Re: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2018, 23:39 
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eyyo is completely right.

i dont think blink microed stalkers should lose to destroyers why just amove but i do think that if none of the armies micro that stalkers and crawlers should be weaker since they got a lot higher potential. maybe like 20% weaker than destroyers and 20% stronger than destroyers with micro. or something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2018, 16:50 
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Agree with Gustav and Eyyo.

Crow wrote: I will be quite frank with you and say units shouldn't be scaled according to potential value.
If Stalkers were to be scaled according to a potential value, they would gain higher value already because of their abillities. Their abillities by themselves gain more value the better micro you have.

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 Post subject: Re: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 16:23 
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Eyyo wrote: My philosophy is that a game should generally be balanced around the highest level of play. However im not sure if i agree on you with stalkers and crawlers. I really like skill based units like ghost, ht etc. If you play perfectly you will kill/emp their ghosts and then ur ht can roam free and give you great trades vs the enemy army. This also encourages multitasking - using many different units and also balancing army micro with the ghost battles etc. And even if you are outplayed you can still at least kill something, to get the last minerals you need to get a ghost for another try lets say.

Now as for stalkers and crawlers i think we should be careful. While i do think its obvious that good play should be rewarded, i also have the question: In a game of MAs lets say 8 best players, would we want that game to consist of 8 stalker/crawler players? The issue i have with those units is that they in theory just dont die. And sure, the stalker player is good and all, but the other player failing to trade fairly vs stalkers cant do that much either with a pure army. And then if stalker/crawlers would be so rewarding when played well and everyone plays them, well nothing dies ^^. It would just slow down the game so much and make it worse in my opinion. Now stalkers i dont have that much of a problem with since the phantom counter works, stun prohibits their blink and the extra damage make them trade well just as i imagine crow meant with that there should indeed be counters.

As for crawlers though, these are generally considered good vs phantoms due to their vulnurability to splash. I guess you could try to give crawler's counters a way to stop them from burrowing or something but as of now, i dont think a crawler meta would be fun. Sure it would feel good for a top player stomping mediocre ones but 8 ppl playing crawlers would be stale. Yes you can get like double collo but i dont think there should be a ground merc in the game that trumps all other ground mercs in army vs army. At least with air, if you counter them and they start losing, they will lose a lot, and if they lose their critical mass they need a lot of time to function properly again. Playing air vs double thor or against dt-dropship-gols is a lot more punishing of mistakes than playing crawlers vs double collo. Air has an all or nothing mechanic wheras buffed meta crawlers in my eyes would be be more of "all or something". Losing a bunch of stalkers/crawlers wouldnt have the same effect either as losing half ur air mass.

Besides, you are a forum moderator, no? You are good at presenting arguments, you dont need sink down to insults. Seems honestly quite odd to start off saying that people that dont agree with you are "in need of a psychiatrist" on a forum about well, discussing different points of views. Cheers ~
mate if you wanna start your own thread thats allright but if u are in my thread i would appreciate if you responded to what i actually wrote and not talk about 8 player crawler or sth. did you actually read my post?
furthermore my post was not a balance one but a post asking for more sanity in regards to suggestions on here, i therefore result to not insults but rather to a friendly advice of going to a psychiatrist, i am being told the same thing by friends on occasion too, no insult there

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 Post subject: Re: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 16:23 
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MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: Agree with Gustav and Eyyo.

Crow wrote: I will be quite frank with you and say units shouldn't be scaled according to potential value.
If Stalkers were to be scaled according to a potential value, they would gain higher value already because of their abillities. Their abillities by themselves gain more value the better micro you have.
read it again. u definitley didnt get it

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 Post subject: Re: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 16:24 
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Gonorstrom wrote: eyyo is completely right.

i dont think blink microed stalkers should lose to destroyers why just amove but i do think that if none of the armies micro that stalkers and crawlers should be weaker since they got a lot higher potential. maybe like 20% weaker than destroyers and 20% stronger than destroyers with micro. or something like that.
that is exactly what i am saying but right now they are 80% weaker.
any of u actually red what i wrote..?

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 Post subject: Re: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 17:19 
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"I will be quite frank with you and say anyone who believes units should be scaled according to potential value ( i am not saying to completely leave strong abilities like blink out of the equation ) which may be reached after 100s or 1000s of hours playing that given unit and acquiring a very high eapm then please go seek a psychiatrist. "






for me that looks like you are saying phantoms and destroyers (dessies as an example) should be equally strong when you leave micro out of the equation. so trading fairly when you dont micro. did i understand this correctly?

because if i did then that means that once the players start microing the dessi player will get absolutely shrekt without even being close to killing anything. to fix this the dessi player ofc gets a colossus since they counter stalkers pretty hard right? well then you get a ghost. and then the colo dies somehow. if the dessy player does not have the money to rebuy the colossus it will have to wait up to 10 minutes to rebuy it because they cant go fighting stalkers since they will not get even closely enough money to make the feeding worth it. killing 1 stalker for every 5 destroyers would be a fairly accurate estimation if they are equally strong without micro but since micro isnt taken into the equation the stalkers are actually 5 times as strong.

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 Post subject: Re: Crow's Rant
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 18:30 
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@crow I'll admit that i glossed over the part where you say that you want the counter to be more skill based, my post was more about you saying stalkers being over nerfed (sounds like a buff request?) and the somewhat confusing first sentence where you say that units should not be balanced around potential (it does get confusing though as you also say you shouldnt take blink out of the question). But sure its sorta hard to argue balance about units whom's counters we havent "invented" yet, so i'll just drop it and stay excited for possible innovations ability-wise.

Anyways, if a friend is feeling depressed it seems logical to tell them to go to a psychiatrist. If you are saying that someone should go to a psychiatrist due to being insane because they dont agree with you seems very arrogant and again, is not a proper way to enter a meaningful discussion. If both sides would be so certain they're right to the extent that they would question the mental health of people on the other side, a discussion could never lead anywhere.

I know its obviously an exaggeration but that doesnt change the fact that its unfitting.


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