Marine Arena


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PostPosted: 13 May 2018, 12:00 
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I believe marines in MA EU are too strong. Definitely compared to marines of MA US. MA US marines receive only 0.5 damage per marine attack upgrade, and 0.25 for merc/hero upgrades. MA EU marines get double that. US marines are quite weak and shutdown easy by doing armor upgrades, so that's not the way to go for MA EU. Maybe MA EU marines should receive 0.75 per marine attack upgrade and half of that for merc/hero attack upgrades?

In MA EU any nub can go full marine upgrades from the start of the game onwards. Marines in MA EU just feed like nuts. Surely in combination with a melee merc. Really difficult to handle without heros / certain elites. A part of the problem is also that MA EU lags a lot. Going full marines is just a point->click strategy that pays off already very early in the game. Countering them requires more micro, thus more difficult with laggy MA EU.

Marine drops should be imo used tactical, not as a lame (yes, it is lame) strategy to drop merc / cc's. In pubs and even in pre's I've seen players that are way behind in bounty, just sit in their base, only upgrade marine attack and speed (not even health or range) and wait for the right moment to drop the leading party with 600 minerals of merc marines that shred the opponents cc in seconds. No warning of the drop, except when they already have landed. I fully agree with Artanis that marine drops in bases are really hard to handle, unless you (1) invest a lot in defenses (planetary fortress, bunkers, turrets or even building armor upgrades), (2) leave a **considerable** amount of army in the base, (3) have a melee merc. Merc marines are far stronger than normal marines and when properly upgraded mow away any ranged merc without effort. Leaving e.g. temples / upgraded marines at merc / cc when not too far behind in upgrades effectively shuts down merc marine drops.

I see a lot of (double) colo play and they (especially chibi colo's) are **really** hard to counter when you play vs a moderate to good player. Again it is largely the problem of lag and chibi's are quite tanky, have insane dps and are fast. Sniping with a single ghost requires either a lot of upgrades on the ghost to 1 shot it or 1 emp and then snipe. It is so easily countered. When EMP'ed, they know a snipe will follow and simply regen shields. And in general, they buy observer and simply with army and colo focus the ghost and it is gone in ~1-2 secs before the snipe went off. Nova works good vs them, but nova farms bad and it requires a lot of investment. Double ghost snipe: again they are focussed down easy. Double ghost EMP works well, but you will need a large investment: 2 ghosts, energy upgrades (otherwise you wait and wait for your ghosts to build up enough EMPs), and quite some attack upgrades on the ghosts to kill chibi with 4 EMPs (by the way, landing 4 EMPs requires good timing, also really difficult with MA EU lag). Oftenwhile your ghosts are empty of energy and the colos still will feed like nuts. Phoenix works well, but require perfect timing to lift (both) colo's and have your army there to defend your phoenixes and focus down the colos. Very easy to counter though with a ghost from the other team or to go the OP goli/chibi strategy.

I too believe that not upgraded ghosts just too easy shutdown the weak festor / ht heroes. Maybe then buff weak hero's health a bit?


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PostPosted: 13 May 2018, 14:10 
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Hello Sacha !

Sacha wrote: In MA EU any nub can go full marine upgrades from the start of the game onwards
I never player Marine arena US but I don't think marines are an issue in early game or in late game in marine arena EU (you might have issue with it when the guy is overfeed but you'll have issue with an overfeed player whatever he is upgrading)

just try infestor / high templar or raven / banshee or warp zealots / banelings and in early game the rines will melt.

Sacha wrote: Countering them requires more micro, thus more difficult with laggy MA EU.
Well it's hard to do less micro than an A move... So yeah you'll have to do a BIT more. But marines depends a lot of their number. if you remove half of them with a seeker missile or barrage from banshees, they will get rolled.

For the lag, well... you can't do much about this, it's just laggy cause players don't have very good computers, and if one of the 8 players have a shitty computer, it will slow the game for all the players.
Game designer, blizzard and you can't do much about this.
you can always optimize the map so it will require less ressources from a computer. but at some point it will always be 8 players with 600 supply on the map. you can expérience the same lag in ranked 4v4 (no kidding).

Sacha wrote: Marine drops should be imo used tactical, not as a lame (yes, it is lame) strategy to drop merc / cc's.
I'm glad someone share my point on the rines drop ! =D even if you were a bit exessive on the counter of it. it doesn't require that many of an army just some mens to allow you enough time for a recall or just walk back and defend. but event that bit of AFK army is a bullet you shoot yourself in the foot for the whole game.

And a planetary fortress is generally enough to protect your base from it (cause it will have 25K h) but it doesn't protect your merc building =/ so yeah not really good options against it.

Sacha wrote: I see a lot of (double) colo play and they (especially chibi colo's) are **really** hard to counter
Yeah I've experience the same, many players go for early colossus or even chibicolo, witch are very good in your army. (no problem with that)

I didn't talked about it in my post cause I don't really think that it is at some point overpowered in the balance of the map.
Cause in 2v2, you will be able to counter it (as you say with gohsts with enough upgrades so they one shot them with a snipe) it usually cost you a bit more (in minerals) do reach this point but I think it is ok (cause once you have reached it, all the money he invested in collossus is now wortheless.)

But in early game, it's not a 2v2, it's a 2v2v2v2 and that's not the same !

Cause when smart players don't go fight straight up an army that have colossus in it, less smart players will do... And repetitively.
Witch gives a huge advantage to the colossus player.

And if you go for an upgraded ghost (with I do all the time and as soon as I see someone buying a colossius), you end up investiong more than 2K minerals in your gohst. and yeah, you will be even on money against the colossius guy. But the others players will now have an advantage over you and him (cause they didn't invest minerals like you both did.)

I usually end us way behind (but no more colossi on the map) and totaly rely on my mate to carry me to victory.

So the unbalance is in the "not very smart players" that go takes MANY fights against colossi...
And you can't balance players. xD

And it's also true that it can be very hard to snipe some player's hero cause they have an obs and know how to use it very well. Or have coreans eyes with allow them to see cloacked units without detectors.

But here it's the skill of some players in play. Can't balance this either.

Sacha wrote: I too believe that not upgraded ghosts just too easy shutdown the weak festor / ht heroes. Maybe then buff weak hero's health a bit?
Here again I'm glad someone share my point =)
I also think that a bit of HP buff might solve the problem.
At least for the gohst to have do cast 2 EMP AND do 1 auto attack.

You need to upgrade 3 times hero health to prevent an unupgraded ghost to insta kill your high templar with 2 EMP (you have like 45 HP left)

And only do 1 health upgrade on your infest to get the same result.

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PostPosted: 13 May 2018, 16:39 
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On marine arena US marines have 50% armor penetration so sachas statement that its easier to armor cap them is wrong.


Artanis sacha isnt bad by any means im sure he knows hightemplar melts marines thing is pure marines should lose to anything. And if the marine player is good the storms will be split against anyhow

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PostPosted: 13 May 2018, 16:53 
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Perhaps.

Never had any kind of issues with marines

And it's not the topic subject, sorry to be a bit expeditious but I really wanna argue on the need (or not) to balance marine drops, infest and HT against 2 EMP

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PostPosted: 13 May 2018, 19:18 
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Ah. thanks Gustav. Didn't know about the armor penetration in MA US. Anyway, still I think that MA EU marine attack upgrades should be nerfed a bit to avoid the early low-skill rine army snowballing.


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PostPosted: 13 May 2018, 19:22 
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definitly. there is nothing more boring than the current marine meta

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PostPosted: 14 May 2018, 06:49 
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Well, it is Marine Arena after all..


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PostPosted: 14 May 2018, 12:10 
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well it sounds a lot better to call it marine arena and not "elites, mercenaries, heroes and marines arena"

this is an argument that comes up every now and then and its so stupid it blows my mind. if you really think one unit should be so good through every phase of the game i really cant understand you.

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PostPosted: 14 May 2018, 13:47 
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But.. I still think that because the name is Marine Arena, marines should actually be a part of the game. Honestly, I dont think that marines are the problem. It is when combined with the strong melee units, it becomes a problem. And even then, you could get a sentry if you are too foolish to get flanked..


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PostPosted: 14 May 2018, 14:46 
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But to come back at my topic, I wanted to put here some of the facts that we discussed IG yesterday after playing together.

BTW I'm sorry if you found me a bit agressive, I really lost my temper cause I thought we were not discussing the same thing or even trying to demonstrate anything. I tryed as much as possible to be nice but I guess it didn't work out in the end.

I apologize.

And I think I found the way to explain you my thought after a good night sleep. :)

You told me IG "a early HT isn't good" and if I wasn't tilted already, we would had a nice discussion after that statement. Because it's everything I try to explain here.

When I see one player (or more) in early game going for marines stim behind zealots or lings. I watch closely if they upgrade their marine attack, and if they do, I wanna go for a high templar or an infest.

The HT costs me 450 minerals, once you have it you need the energy regen (250 minerals) and some range for the storms (ideally) and damages so the marines won't have time to split (around 1000 minerals )

And here I'm talking early game like around 5 and 10 minutes of the game.

Where your opponent will just invest 400 minerals in a ghost and will have the hability to either cast 1 emp to cancel the HT energy, and be finally free of storms, or casts 2 emps, and be free of a HT and get minerals from the kill + force his opponent to do an other one.

In any situation, the EMP isn't avoidable (we also agreed on that yesterday) you can juke around and sometimes flanc the army with a good usage of a medivac (witch you showed me).
But even this kind of play gets countered by an EMP (witch I showed you yesterday), in this case on the medivac, so you don't have enough energy on it to pickup the HT.

Anyway, if we just look at minerals,

Player 1 = HT player invested like 1K or 1K2 minerals (in case of a medivac usage)(and in a high templar that will only kill marines (maybe specters) with that kind of damages.
Player 2 = The marine & zealot player will have only invest 400 in a ghost

(still in and early game)

In this scenario :
Player 2 have a stronger army (cause of the 600/800 minerals he spent in upgrades.)
Player 1 and can win against him with his HT. (he could have buy some banshees, battlecruisers, oracles, phoenix, or else to counter the HT but he choose the ghost)

Player 2 buys a ghost (here they both are at 1000 or 1200 minerals) and go fight player 1 again.

And just for fun here let's pretend that the EMP don't do damage to the templar. (JUST FOR FUN)

Player 2 cast an unavoidable EMP cause the HT was almost in range trying to cast a storm, the HT loose all his energy. AND DON'T DIE.

Player 1 gets reckt. Cause his army was lower in upgrade and only controls now a flying pinata
and any player will be able to roll on all his army until his HT gets some energy back. (and I think this is why you prefer an opening with disruptors and agreed with me on the fact that an early HT is weak.)

When, in the balance of the map, does player 1 need to gets the kill on the HT in order to balance the fight HT vs ghost ?

I put some colors in my last sentence cause it's what I try to explain here.

Ghost should be a hard counter for infest and HT.

And actually he is just WAY MORE than a hard counter.

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