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 Post subject: Ghost and HT suggestion
PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 08:59 
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Set the maximum number of Ghosts you can have at a time from two to one. This makes EMP spamming, which is way too OP, useless. It can still kill HTs though, but this is where my next suggestion comes into play;
Give the HT an abillity which would make it disappear for a very short duration. It would mean that if the HT player is fast enough he will be able to dodge an EMP, but the Ghost will still be able to remove the energy, by using a second EMP with a delay.
Also instead of the extra snipe DMG, you can buy on the Ghost, replace it with small snipe time reduction.
In addition to everything else, Nova lash should also deal a little less DMG, but make the energy cost, be around 65% of what it is now. With this, Nova would be able to kill ultimate heroes, with 2 lash, wich will give players with ultimate heroes a chance to escape. If they do not try to escape. It will not be too easy, because of the reduced cast time.

So all in all, this would make colossus not able to be killed from four EMPs, it would make Ghost easier to Snipe, Nova too. It would make the Nova a better against Ultimate Heroes, because you can't make double Ghost.

This is just a couple of ideas, but I would like to see what you people think about them.
Also, remember that this is not all that has to be done IMO, this is what I could come up with at the moment.


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PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 15:12 
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MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: Set the maximum number of Ghosts you can have at a time from two to one.
I don't know what to think about that. (I know that the balance between 2 ghosts vs 1 nova have been discussed before)
And actually getting 2 ghosts is my only answer to players that goes 3 hydras + 3 hydras...
(but maybe if 2 ghosts aren't possible I'll look after a new play and maybe try colossi... )

I aloso found that 2 ghosts are mandatory if more than 2 enemy teams goes for heroes. (because then 1 ghost don't have enough energy regen to snipe them (and only snipe. no EMP used, they drain way too much energy in case of many splited heroes.))
(It's not played a lot but happend to me once or twice, and once again if it wasn't possible to go for 2 ghosts I might have tryed something else, like nukes or yamatos...)

MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: Give the HT an abillity which would make it disappear for a very short duration
I agree about that the HT should have an option against double EMP.
But don't forget about the infest that have the exact same issue.

MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: Also instead of the extra snipe DMG, you can buy on the Ghost, replace it with small snipe time reduction.
I think the snipe is way alright this way. I use it a LOT !! (cause I like to exploits weird snipe locations) and if you are a bit creative you'll kill heroes without too much issues. (it will just ask you a bit more attention for ou ghost and less fr your army), but it's just the same for any hero you build.

MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: In addition [...] Nova lash should also deal a little less DMG, but make the energy cost, be around 80. With this, Nova would be able to kill ultimate heroes, with 2 lash, wich will give players with ultimate heroes a chance to escape. If they do not try to escape. It will not be too easy, because of the reduced cast time.
Just to be sure it you be a nerf of nova here. Cause if you need 2 lashs to kill an ultimate, then it would cost something like 150 energy (against 125 now for one)
Even with a fast casting (it's actually 3 sec and it's quite fast.) because the lash won't break with just distance. (if the nova player scanned well)
because if you use lash once, and the ennemy hero just walk back, it will land anyway if you scanned. but then you'll be too far for the lethal lash...

Personally I rarely do nova. (mainly cause I can fo 2 ghosts for 700 minerals and do approximatively the same as if I did nova for 2.5K minerals...)
but when I do, it's for odin or dark archon. but if I need to use 2 lashes... I don't think it's worth it.

Plus the ghost snipe for 50 energy. witch allow him to do like 3-4 snipes if he is max energy.
nova can only do 2. and it asks 125 witch means she'll have to wait even longer than the ghost to go use a lash again.

MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: [...] this would make colossus not able to be killed from four EMPs, it would make Ghost easier to Snipe, Nova too.
I think any hero is vulnerable to constant EMP (cause you can't transfuse them forever) not just colossus.
But I wanted to point out that the colossius don't die with 4 EMP. they leave him with 750HP. it's a decent amount.
but yeah if the ghosts do that 2 or 3 times in like 5 minutes, they will evntually get them.
(but if they do can succed to do you the same trick 2-3 times... I guess you disserv to loose you hero at last. Mostly cause it's not a lethal harass. The ghost player have to do the trick more than one time to get the money.)

But I do agree that it's a god damn easy trick to do !! (no misunderstanding here)
In comparaison where you have to be stealthy and creative to snipe any hero, you need no finesse to EMP anything. (I may be rude cause I find it way too easy)

I don't think that the snipe of the ghost needs a change. (as explained before)
(and the cost of nova's lash is an issue only is you have to spam EMP and handle an ultimate hero OR if you have to handle more than 1 ultimate hero.)

MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: It would make the Nova a better against Ultimate Heroes, because you can't make double Ghost.
Correction x) it will leave nova as you only option since double ghost would no longer be a possibility. I don't think it's a buff of any kind as explained above.



Sorry I can do very big posts sometimes. ^^
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PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 16:38 
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Artanis wrote: wasn't possible to go for 2 ghosts I might have tryed something else[/color], like nukes or yamatos
Artanis wrote: but maybe if 2 ghosts aren't possible I'll look after a new play and maybe try colossi

Excacly, it would add my strategies, if double Ghost wasn't an option, which makes the game more interresting.

Artanis wrote: But don't forget about the infest that have the exact same issue.

This post was only about HT, Nova and Ghost. I know other heroes have issues too, but we can discuss that later :smile:

Artanis wrote: I think the snipe is way alright this way. I use it a LOT !! (cause I like to exploits weird snipe locations) and if you are a bit creative you'll kill heroes without too much issues.

I don't know if you have played pres, but people will notice your Ghost, unless you have the watch tower, and place it there.

Artanis wrote: Just to be sure it you be a nerf of nova here

This might seem like a nerf, but let me explain. If you make lash have a shorter cast time, with way less energy cost, it will be able to kill heroes after heroes. It will make nova much better against many heroes. I would also give her a little more energy regen. This would also make ultimate heroes stand a chance against the lash if they play safe. Nova can still easily kill the ultimate heores, because of the reduced cast time.

Also I will add one more thing, another Nova buff. Whenever Nova gets drained with energy (EMP, feedback), she should only lose 50% of her total energy. That would make her superior in a battle vs Ghost, which she should, because she is so expensive.

Artanis wrote: But I wanted to point out that the colossius don't die with 4 EMP.

They do if you have a couple of attack upgrades.


Last edited by MaxLaks (Maximus) on 16 May 2018, 16:45, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 16:44 
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Double ghost should imo stay to deal with mass HKs. Otherwise they are almost unstoppable. Colo is a really strong hero. It feeds so hard and the investment to kill it with 4 EMPs (that btw need to LAND, also not easy with lag) is really high. So, yes, it should be possible to kill Colo with mass EMP.


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PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 16:49 
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Sacha wrote: Double ghost should imo stay to deal with mass HKs. Otherwise they are almost unstoppable. Colo is a really strong hero. It feeds so hard and the investment to kill it with 4 EMPs (that btw need to LAND, also not easy with lag) is really high. So, yes, it should be possible to kill Colo with mass EMP.
I do not agree. Let me explain:
HKs can be countered with, BC, Sentry, Colo, Raven, ultimate heroes of course.
Colo is easily killed with 4 EMPs, which costs a little more than 1k (because you need some attack upgrates). You can also get nix, BC, air, vikings, goliaths with medi to counter them. Also, with my Nova idea, it would be much better against Colos.


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PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 17:09 
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well, in order to be able to (often enough) do mass EMP, you need:
400 ghost + 500 gas + 200 2nd ghost + 750 energy upgrades on ghost (and yes, these are needed), and ~475 for a two attack upgrades on ghost = 2325. Still, these ghosts themselves farm like crap, so you are waayyyy behind a player that just goes colo and feeds (on nubs).


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PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 17:59 
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Sacha wrote: well, in order to be able to (often enough) do mass EMP, you need:
400 ghost + 500 gas + 200 2nd ghost + 750 energy upgrades on ghost (and yes, these are needed), and ~475 for a two attack upgrades on ghost = 2325. Still, these ghosts themselves farm like crap, so you are waayyyy behind a player that just goes colo and feeds (on nubs).

So whats ur point? U just claimed before that double Ghost should stay in the game, and now you say they are terrible. Btw, you dont need the energy ups, just get some more hero DMG instead, which also gives 50% to your other units. Ghosts can also nuke, which is very usefull too. With my suggestion Nova will be more viable, and if you are having trouble against a lot of heroes, which she will be way better against, you can go for new strategies, as is said before. It would mean a more interresting game, with a lot more varity.


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PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 18:48 
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MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: Excacly, it would add my strategies, if double Ghost wasn't an option, which makes the game more interresting.
if a 1 ghost + 1 nova are allowed in your scenario, then I think it could create some more (better) plays in deed.
But to me, it's mostly the abuse of EMP that prevent the creation of better plays.

MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: I don't know if you have played pres, but people will notice your Ghost, unless you have the watch tower, and place it there.
I don't know what you mean by "pres" I usually without watch towers, with 4 teams alive it's a bit easyer (but not by much) and honestly observers will helps you as much as they hurts you (cause the ennemy show you where he espect your ghost to be.) (observ the observer and you'll find his blind spot ^^)

But OFC there are some very good players who can handle multiple observer (and very well, not just hold position them.) witch won't be easy to snipe (I actually found only 2 different player that I could only snipe their hero a couple times. (they were damn good)


Artanis wrote: But I wanted to point out that the colossius don't die with 4 EMP.
MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: They do ( if you have a couple of attack upgrades.)

HUMM ^^ no they do not only needs 2 upgrades. I just did the test map. the 3 upgrades for energy (and damage up for EMP) + 7 upgrades on hero attack are needed so those 2 ghosts can OS a colossius (witch won't have any health upgrade).

I don't wanna do the math but it does asks a lot of money just to OS them (harrassing them as I explained above is better in my opinion)
(I think people just go for EMP cause you can't avoid them. and less risky for your ghost than a snipe)

Sacha wrote: Still, these ghosts themselves farm like crap, so you are waayyyy behind a player that just goes colo and feeds (on nubs).
try to snipe istead of EMP and they'll start farming great (if you're a bit creative)
But yeah you will be way behind in money. But if you kill the colo, (you won't be way ahead), the colo player will be way behind too !
so in 1v1 it's balance. You just have to win the 2v2v2v2 after that ^^

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PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 18:49 
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i dont think 2 ghosts are op since 1 ghost + colo/ht can have an insane farm capability if you manage to emp the other ghosts. however i think heroes in general are too weak early and because of that you cant afford a ghost to counter double ghost as you need money for the upgrades, (or like ultra that just sucks dick basically no matter the upgrades with the exception of the first 10 min)

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PostPosted: 16 May 2018, 20:02 
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Artanis wrote: Artanis wrote: But I wanted to point out that the colossius don't die with 4 EMP.
MaxLaks (Maximus) wrote: ↑ They do ( if you have a couple of attack upgrades.)

HUMM ^^ no they do not only needs 2 upgrades. I just did the test map. the 3 upgrades for energy (and damage up for EMP) + 7 upgrades on hero attack are needed so those 2 ghosts can OS a colossius (witch won't have any health upgrade).

Ok, I did not know this, good to know. I don't think it change any of my ideas.

Gonorstrom wrote: i dont think 2 ghosts are op since 1 ghost + colo/ht can have an insane farm capability if you manage to emp the other ghosts

Well, I think double Ghost is too OP. There is no point in bying Nova or anything else if you can get double Ghost. There is other ways to counter heroes, but they are never used because double Ghost is so cheap. I don't know if you have read all my suggestions, but if not you should, and think about it.


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