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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 09:26 
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euryleia wrote: Your thesis was akin to tell Raiden to hurry along with the changes and this was the meat of why:
As an observer, just to name a few, I see an outcry for:

Defined counter circles (and in doing so, direct balance to temples)
Fixes to the map to remove outdated triggers and code that are slowing the game down and making things like lings/warps so laggy.
Changes to medivac/raven dominance that base defenses barely handle, and armies that have little defensible measures to counter.
Monty's thread reflect my own thread for the fact that Raiden finally stepped back and let the hosts do what hosts do best. He could have tacked it on my thread but chose to make it his own. I thought your ideas and questions would deserve a stand-alone thread too.

******

Well you can put into it what you will, I'm not suggesting he hurry, Eury, merely questioning the rate at which these changes are made and his commitment to the game as a whole, which ties back to the idea that the map would be dead without his efforts asserted by Monty.

Again, something I expanded upon further...

Regarding the tournament, stepping back for the hosts to me has little to do with developing the map.


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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 09:33 
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Regarding the tournament, stepping back for the hosts to me has little to do with developing the map.
Well, Monty and I would gladly disagree. We saw his agenda for the day got derailed due to forum activities. Every dev is different. By questioning the time it took from the change props to the changelog, you are putting his pace into question. So yes, your solution is Do it Faster, Raiden. You even stated that you saw Vincent took the map and made changes done in a day.

What was Vincent doing with the map? And why are we playing EUMA by Raiden and not Vincent?


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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 09:52 
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euryleia wrote:
Regarding the tournament, stepping back for the hosts to me has little to do with developing the map.
Well, Monty and I would gladly disagree. We saw his agenda for the day got derailed due to forum activities. Every dev is different. By questioning the time it took from the change props to the changelog, you are putting his pace into question. So yes, your solution is Do it Faster, Raiden. You even stated that you saw Vincent took the map and made changes done in a day.

What was Vincent doing with the map? And why are we playing EUMA by Raiden and not Vincent?


*******


Mkay well I don't know what his agenda was so I can't comment on that.

Please stop throwing my position into the "do it faster" wagon, that's not what my point was and you're puting into it what you think.

As for other developers, I don't know the entire story, but I can only speculate that vince/kontz took it upon themselves to do a remake on an older map and rebuild it from the ground up while the devs were inactive. They had quite the following that as you can figure, upset thom and raiden. It fell off however, despite being a superior map in both balance and bug fixes, it's not an official map and so pubs did not join it.

If you want the full story to it I'd suggest getting in touch with either of them.


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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 10:04 
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So what's the solution to your observations? This?
There should be far more threads with developer/community interaction than we are seeing no?
My argument would be: No. I will use Crayons's example: he looked at the changes, added what he thought was need, and published. Next week, ppl debated and added more changes, then he would publish the ones he thought should be needed.

Getting into the day to day is just like getting into a quagmire.


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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 10:06 
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Sorry to dissapoint u eury, but temples are not just a mere late game meta...

They are broken AF...

The tankeyness from zeals is beyond ridiculous.... If u want I can't send u a replay in which I was 15K fully upgraded army and struggled to deal with upgraded temples from a guy with something like 5K bounty...

Next to this I agree with ragey on his comments about raiden, for I have similar experiences with him....

Im writing it here, cuz interpretation isn't something I can influence, but again Im stressing that Im not trying to be dick or get raiden fired or whatever....

I just want him to work smarter.... There is an entire community out here, who has good ideas and wants to help him.... He just doesn't want to be helped before he "trusts" people and people not openly criticise him...

I think that mindset is very wrong and that is his flaw to make the game great again...

Monty said it perfectly when he was talking about the committee:

"I always ran a democratic process by giving all committee members a voice and NEVER chiming in until they had the opportunity to have an active discussion and a vote. I only came in when the vote was tied.

I DON'T ALWAYS GO TO COMMITTEE. The committee is there when I feel conflicted on a decision and believe that I need others opinions to have a better understanding of the situation...SO don't take the fact that just because one is on the committee, that they will have a voice in EVERY decision.

Going forward, I hope the new HOST picks a committee that differs from their mindset because if you only hear one side of the argument...then there is no need for a committee."

Replace HOST with DEV and u got the point...

Cuz what Raiden had been running, was nothing short of an autocratic project, mismanaged and guided by wrong principles.... With the outcome of an arena filled with a lot of broken units, undelivered promises and still no balance....


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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 10:15 
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I agree that a good dev needs to keep an adversarial approach to the balancing process.

But if you trace a line through every dev, and this goes from crayon to kiwa to alucard to linjo to thom to raiden, it's that design a game is not a democratic process. It's project lead making the calls and decide, not votes. Design by committee is not in this game's blood. And so far, EUMA is breathing and all, despite warts and all.

You are with a dev that you disagree today. But after raiden, you might find someone you will agree with.

Come to think of it, I heard that you went with Vincent and Kontz and crafted the new map. But as you can see, without a community backing you, it's harder to get the map out there. So something else is missing. I don't have an answer that would please you. I just state what I saw from history that goes as far back as 2010. And that common point between all devs is that each came in and put in a vision. Nice to have beta testers working with them, but that was for balancing and marginal suggestions (unless what you suggested was what the dev wanted to explore but had no time to do so).

(If this map split is EUMA's sore spot, I promise I will not bring it up so unprompted again.)


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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 10:34 
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There are lot post about temple zealot around this thread. i think it is off topic but, as
I am playing TZ very often as starting merc, so i think i can give feedback about this unit as i know well good and bad points of it.

1) Tz pretty sucks at 10 min. There are far better choice at that time. but i agree it can became good from middle to end game.

2) you must combine TZ AND marines. Try to play TZ alone, like you would play warp, reaver, firebats or bettles, and i can tell you they will suck 90% of the time. temples are only good because marines have the firepower behind and the 10 damage cap makes them valuable in end game where all units are upgraded.

3) There are always way to counter them. ofc they dont like air, but also spell damages are not took in account with the shield system. festor pawn them hard but also ht. sentries is also a good counter with the force field (ht can use that also). Use ghost's EMP to remove that shield.


4) The Raiden's update about temple did not go imo in the good way as he decreased the starting amount of Hp (equivalent of more than 1 upgrade, 25 total hp+shield), making them "poorly" viable in starting game, and he did not decreased enough the scaling amount of protoss shield by upgrade to avoid they become unkillable in endgame (a way would be to give dramaticly more hp than shield by upgrade).


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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 10:37 
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yea i feel the same. not enough people emp templots. but gh emp % should be increased.

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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 10:41 
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I totally agree with you that the ship has one captain and that the captain makes the choices.... I never mentioned I didn't... In fact, Im a big believer in hierarchy and that one person should call the shots...


Im just saying that from a professional point of perspective, this project is run very amateuristic... I don't know about all those other developers, and I don't know if any of them are professional game developers or highly proficient with project management methodologies, but I reckon the standard they provided does not reflect the hallmark of professional developing or working in a project-run environment...

Offcourse Im aware everyone has their own lives next to the contributions they make for this game, thus the outcome can never be as much and as fast as a professional game developing environment, however from my experiences with raiden and the beta team, I can tell u as much that inefficiency and ineffectiveness issues are the outcome of certain processes that had not been dealt with in an good way.... And in comparison to a business project, they are underperforming the norm...


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PostPosted: 01 Feb 2017, 10:47 
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euryleia wrote: You are with a dev that you disagree today. But after raiden, you might find someone you will agree with.

without a community backing you, it's harder to get the map out there. So something else is missing.

So basically there's no hope until raiden leaves for many who wish to share their views and talents to be heard? That doesn't sound much like unity to me, and would simply cause problems and divide the community, I think we can all agree that's not the goal.

Afaik, the map vince/kontz made was heavily supported by the community, sans the developers. The problem was that they couldn't publish it in a way that put it on the board as an official map, getting pubs to join so they could enjoy the game outside of pre. The focus for vince/kontz I believe is more on the current map, but I don't think they are being utilized or more would be done.


Last edited by Rageypoo on 01 Feb 2017, 10:47, edited 1 time in total.

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