Marine Arena


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PostPosted: 17 May 2018, 16:26 
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Right I’m going to reply to this with bullet points to make my feedback really clear and obvious:

- BEATING ME IN A PUB
Even if you did (I don’t recall), congrats, but how is this relevant to the topic and discussion?

- LACK OF POSITIVITY
Just because my replies don’t agree with yours, doesn’t mean they aren’t positive. My response with regard to the current meta in general isn’t just my opinion, but the reflection of many of the current players. In addition, my points with regard to ghost support strategy, microing HT in a medivac and leaving units in base are all constructive tips. Am not sure why hot weather is, therefore, my only positive comment?

-MARINE DROP
Your argument here is so flawed. Firstly, it’s £150 for one marine drop. I’ve read your replies (no need for sarcasm?) and Gustav has already argued that if you leave units in your base, there is no way 2x150 marine drops will kill any building in your base - that’s WITHOUT base defence. So either, you don’t leave units in base, or your miscalculating how many marines are being dropped or when you do get dropped you don’t notice you are being dropped for about 10s? Or all of the last three points combined. Either way your maths are out. It also makes me laugh you think balance favours the aggressive player. I assume you have noticed the current state of base defence?

-GUSTAV
His most known nicknames are Gustav/Uber otter/Scimitar/gonorstrom. He is a very experienced player and regularly takes part in premades (private teamed lobbies). As he mentioned earlier, he practices HT a lot and it’s a fact he will beat you in the majority of games with it. It isn’t an insult, it’s a fact.

- LINGS CRACKLINGS
My suggestion to remove this unit is not a quick balance fix, it’s because they cause severe lag. You misunderstand this. The bane upgrade is also bugged (no pun intended) where you don’t get bounty for killing them. They aren’t viable in terms of balance but my suggestion is lag related.

- PLAYER BASE
I play ladder too, and there isn’t a greater range in noobs to pros on MA. The skill range is opposite of what you say - it’s closer on MA - since ladder is more balanced therefore skill, multitasking and micro gains greater rewards. The difference is, ladder search matches you vs similar level players. MA does not.

- TEAM STRATEGY
Yes it is worth your partner making a ghost. That’s the whole point lol, this is a game of counters. That’s why many good teams will pick mercs with good synergy -> like air/temples, air/desi, maraider/phantom. As I said, this is a TEAM GAME. Stop making comments from a solo perspective.


- your sarcastic EDITOR comment
I am not saying editor is an easy job. It’s time consuming and I don’t have the editor knowledge to make the changes (although people I know do). I’ve been a beta tester and have made suggestions on balance as I’ve played this game a long time - I’m sure many people would argue I know the game and balance(or lack of quite well).
What I will say is confusing arguments about changes of balance doesn’t really help the editor. Some recent changes have been poor and we are currently still suffering many mistakes from the current editor—> namely:

1. Isolation in community and making decisions consulting his close friends only
2. A 3 year suffering of a map with no lag improvement
3. A ranking system update that was promised in November (now May) - when I lose a game I get fog of war and no end game as I’m a rank above GM which isn’t recognised
4. A clear lack of time to commit to the map to provide the changes necessary (without bringing in helpers to the editor team).

In summary, I hope that’s clearer. I’ve expanded why I disagree with your comments, as well as gone into more detail with my other comments. You are entitled to your opinion, of course you are. No need to be sarcastic to my opinions - I recommend you take my comments seriously, not emotionally - it’s called debate. . If you have other balance points you wish to talk about I’ll reply, but on the topic in hand, I’ve nothibg more to say.


Last edited by ExCaL on 17 May 2018, 16:33, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 17 May 2018, 16:27 
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Platanix wrote: Dear Artanis

I would like to set some things straight for my short answer didn't quite covered you as it should. The truth of the matter is that you really need a lot more games to get a somehow clear view of the map and the different game styles. Seems to me you like the short & easy walk and meanwhile turn this post to a private seminar covered with the endless use of 'if's. With that said, I think that treating a decent truthful answer of mine on your agony was so cruelly dishonored by just saying a stereotyped phrase about the weather. There is a chance that a storm may come after the rain. And it might even get worse. it might become a Blizzard. So again with more experience, answers tend to answer themselves.

During this long post, I saw lots of arguments about scans drops, possibilities, worths, solutions but I really can't make any sense on most of them. In most cases the answers are there and in some others, u just need to dig a bit more. Since u so easily concluded that the whole 6* pages weren't read I 'll jump to your summary. Mercs marines NOT always put the defender in a losing position.

I am sending you 2 pics of my self so u see how damn sexy I am. That request alone I understood. The rest made no sense on my grammar.

I wish you a good long journey ahead.


+1

And WOW. What a hottie


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PostPosted: 17 May 2018, 16:32 
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Platanix wrote: Mercs marines NOT always put the defender in a losing position.
Here we are talking ! Please I beg of you quintessence of human kind. Allow me to see more clearly in the balance of those drops.
All I ask is to understand. maybe there is something I missed.

_________________
For Ayur !


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PostPosted: 17 May 2018, 22:23 
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@Artanis.

You have some valid points in your suggestions, which got my attention.
Of course there are player's who are very good with certain heroes, this is why "EMP" had to do some damage in order to be able to counter these heroes back, because "Snipe" is very slow.

Of course making EMP to only "Remove energy" is indeed a counter already, because without energy, caster heroes cannot get any income. But, "EMP" damage is needed and further more in situations like "HK SPAM" which is kinda hard to deal with using only "Snipe", then again having x2 ghosts and taking out x2 heroes is a viable tactic, but not always a snipe will land if a player is good in spotting/seeing ghosts.
Keep in mind that adding "Health upgrades" to your hero can overcome the "EMP" since damage dealt if the ghost player does not upgrade "Hero damage" will keep alive your caster hero.
This is 1 way to avoid getting killed by x2 EMP, just need to check out enemy hero upgrades often to be sure "EMP" will not take out your hero.


About Merc Marines, one thing that can be done is add drop charges that will be available per player. Currently there's not a limit, just a "charge cooldown", but adding limited drop charges this means that for each game, each player will have access to certain amount of "Merc drop marines", for example 10-15 (1.5k - 2k minerals) drops per player. The number is already more than enough for a game since after 60 minutes in most games SD is activated and "Merc drops" are disabled.
Like this players will no longer drop without caring and pick their drops more carefully since the number will be limited, while now players drop even to kill just 1-2 elites/heroes that are on the back without army support.

This is something that we can test out and see the outcome, but yet i cannot tell you for sure it will be added, have to see results and feedback first after test sessions are complete.

Overall its good to discuss your concerns about game balance and bring it up here at forums for further feedback.


@Excal.

Thank you for your kind and nice words, just you made 1 mistake and added 1 more whole year since we are still on 2018 and Marine Arena EU went live on May 2016, so its 2 years not 3.

Now for lag improvements, im sure you remember and many players know how many times the game was updated with lag fixes and they also confirmed the map being smoother.

About listening only "to friends", again this is another thing that is not true, since many changes that took place were from various players who are not even in my friendlist, please you can also ask Kontz since there's changes he suggested and are in game since longtime, im sure he will confirm this to you.
I cannot add and say yes to every suggestion i see, at first suggestions are being looked at under different scenarios and after that they pass into real game testing in order to see the outcome. Only a few suggestions might go straight to the game after of course discussing them.

Rank bug is a true think and I did looked it up, however implementing a fix on the current version was not an easy option and since I was already working on the new version which this bug will not exist there and this is something i honestly thank players who facing this bug for being patient over it.

Finally, I don't think there's enough to be said about the "lack of time". Creating a whole new version on my own, which I started since 2017 and none knew about that and doesn't have any of all the known bugs, and of course LAG is improved FOR GOOD, says a lot, plus keeping current version with frequently updates and balance changes (current forum change logs + previous forum) is a fact. So If you knew what it takes to do that, I believe you wouldn't have said that.

That's all, thank you.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2018, 22:25 
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Hey Artanis,

Firstable, I am pleased new people on forum brought peaks of activity here.
I have more or less read already all this thread, but that started to be lengthy and going everywhere, so difficult to answer also :lol:

I am going to answer and give my feelings about lastest points which cristallized this thread or shoked me a bit.

@artanis
About drop marines they are strong and not at the same time. THey are early almost useless, but can be deadly from middle game with teched marines. I think their price is right cause you are not sure 100% to reach your objective but at some point it is an easy way to force savior for example. A limited utilization of them will force people to use them wisely maybe (maybe 10 to 15 max /people in a game). An about having units defending the base, this dont work 100% in end game with very high teched marines. Or you just need to lure a bit in front to make opening behind.

I played enough game vs you Artanis&Phoenix to know you are quite good players. I would say your strenght is probably the teamplay, which makes always a difficult team to beat.

@Platanix: Nice photos of you!

@ Excal:

I regret you are so agressive toward a new forum member while he never shown a such attitude. Imo, this dont show good behavior of MA community.

I was also surprised by some false facts you spread here:

1. Isolation in community and making decisions consulting his close friends only

You were part like other of your friend of the beta team some time ago. At that time, Raiden, when he got the map from Thomulf open the beta team to you and some of your friends in OOE in order to work together rather than quarelling each other. Although promising this move did not work due to some bad attitudes of people insulting Raiden. After some time you also left your self beta team and also erased your account here.
So I am sorry but you are the only one here who wanted to be isolated.

Although all this mess, I know for exemple KOntz still have contact with Raiden and this latter applied some suggestions from him. Even you , you sometimes suggested things in pm, and i think he listened you at some points.

2. A 3 year suffering of a map with no lag improvement

1) Raiden got the map exactly for 2 years not 3.
2) If Raiden has a ma map version of the 3 min CD ultimate heroe (at that time he got rights on the map from thomulf), i bet anything it was way more lagguy. I am sorry if you have a selective memory.

3. A ranking system update that was promised in November (now May) - when I lose a game I get fog of war and no end game as I’m a rank above GM which isn’t recognised.

THis bug was here for some long time, more than 5 years. If it is that easy to fix i guess i would have done it. Btw how much people is it affecting? 5-6 maybe. Even me i did not get that rank yet (i would like be able to play more MA!! ;) ). So maybe he just did not prioritize this.

4. A clear lack of time to commit to the map to provide the changes necessary (without bringing in helpers to the editor team).

Well here is question of point of view. Facts are a balance change is done more or less every month. After you might not like the direction the map goes, it is one other thing. We try to develop the map for all the community not only 10 "premaders". I think it is assumed that we deliberatly nerfed the power of elites because they were (and are still but in a more balance way i think) source of easy and fast early feed which desequilibrate the game.


- LINGS CRACKLINGS
My suggestion to remove this unit is not a quick balance fix, it’s because they cause severe lag.


Removing a unit because it lags is a bad reason. Because if you play that game i propose to remove mother ship (cloack) or the best lagging units, the mutalisks, which always creates a lag spike in favor of muta player.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2018, 22:44 
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@ExCal
I might have been a bit more sarcastic than usual only cause I thought you figued I was a noob witch out the blue came here and trys to change everything.

Plus you came here saying the exact same stuff than other people witch I already explained why those arguments didn't convinced me. (so to me you didn't add anything to the subject)

And makes me feel like every posts I did here were useless, cause like eveywhere else on the internet, people never change their minds they are just here to troll.

I did not take that well. (I apologise if I have upset you)

With your detailed post, now I see you think exactly the same about me.

So from now on I'll be nice. And don't write any mean sarcasm.

ExCaL wrote: - LACK OF POSITIVITY
Just because my replies don’t agree with yours, doesn’t mean they aren’t positive. [...]

That was a joke here below some quote from your previous post (it's no mean to any sarcasm. Just trying to explain you how your post sounded to me. This in not of matter of debate anything just the truth about how I did read your post.)
ExCaL wrote: [...]that’s usually due to poor gameplay from others in the game [...]
most elites have been nerf hammered [...]

[...]many of these silly balance suggestions are based from a solo viewpoint and from mediocre pub play. [...]
Many fun elements have already been nerfed due to comments and topics like this that blame balance for lack of skill[...]

The meta is very boring at the moment. [...]
Only few elites are viable (including in pub) and only few mercs are viable.[...]
The lag is still atrocious[...]
Banes are trolly [...]
Many elites are nerfed so it isn’t worth getting them, therefore micro and skill is reduced. Base defence is stupid.


On the bright side. The weather has been nice lately and Platanix is sexy AF
And honestly you last sentence made me laugh cause it was the perfect contrast of your post. ^^
As I look at it after words, you might not have been mean, you just speak you mind with strong words I wouldn't myself use (witch confuses me a bit)

About Gonostrom, I didn't knew he was so popular. And didn't knew about all his nicknames. Thx for pointing this out. (it is true that his micro is better than mine. Maybe not for winning 10 games in a row but enough for me to learn from him)

And I did learn about the medivac micro and how to counter medivac by playing with him it's true. but we talked and his using of an HT is not in the same context as I wanna argue here. Cause I'm speaking about an early HT and he never does one (as he explained me)

Cause his play of an HT ask more investissment (since it depends of medivacs.)

We talked about pure mineral investissement. and we agreed that it wasn't worth it to go for an HT in early game.
But he also pointed out that in his opinion a ghost should be able to instakill a HT with 2 EMP.
(still don't really understands why, but it's here so I don't quote half of his statements)

I also thank you for this detail argumentation about zerlings.
I personally have encounter lags only 2 or 3 times... so I'm quite amaze by every one complaining about this. (But it is true that there are not many player going for zerglings)
I did saw that once that bane don't give mineral. I once had to savior a huge amount of them (maybe like 50-60 banes.) and got like 10 minerals... (but not many player abuse of them)

But not the point of this thread.

About the player base yeah we mostly think the same. (I think we still have more players playing arcade than the ladder) (but it's mostly the fact that there is no way to create filters on lobby so the player's skill cannot be balanced.) (I think I explained it wrong in my last post sorry, but you share the same opinion so it's fine ^^)


About the team part.
It was sarcasm for the 2 players needing to invest against only on the an opponent team.
But if you stand with your statement, it surprises me.
Not because it's team play or strategy. But because for you it's alright that you need to be 2 players investing and working together in order to counter only one.
Because then the ally of that player can do whatever he wants without too many issues if his ally handle an entire team by his own...
Maybe I'll do an example later. let's focus on the end here.

If I do solo perspective comment, it's because I mostly talk mineral and that it's easy to do minerals x2.

And as you said it's a game of counters. we can always assume that you ally will helps you and that the ennemy ally will help him.

for example you says that my ally could do one ghost and help me by using EMP on the ennemy ghost.
Well my ennemy ally could do the exact same thing.
(that's why I talk about 1v1. Cause if my ally can help me in any way I'm sure the opponent's ally can do the same.)

(Do you have example of team effort that would not be affected by this kind of thought ? maybe I missed something )


For the edditing part
I'm an informatician. I know how time consuming it is to do this kind of work it represents. It was no sarcasm at all. I truely ment everything I talked about.
The special elite skilled player map first came at me while watching pro players on ladder.
it's like they don't play the same game.
So it make sens that when you try to balace the game, you have to choose a perspective to balace it from.
If it's for pro player (witch will allow some low skilled player to abuse some plays.)
Or if it's for low skilled players. (witch will make the top levels plays less varied and not very interresting (in my opinion) )
and whatever you choose there will always be whinners x)

And as long as there are no possibility of arraging games according with player's skills in arcade, maybe 2 different map with different balance of units might be an appreciate thing.
(and could be more appréciate for master + level players.)

But it's not relevant with the topic (or is it ? maybe all can be fix with this kind of thought)

And finally marine drop. I'd LOVE (truely) to discuss / debate / argue about it.

first of all I said :
Artanis wrote: -300 minerals. (usually, we can always argue about the number of marines he will drop)
and I said that cause most of the time people send 2 marines drops at once.


And yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you guys already argued about defending drops.
Artanis wrote: And that's my point ! No one will drop you if you build thoses defences. Witch means your defences will never gets any refund ! you will just have spend money for nothing.
And even if the latent army don't cost you money, they don't get you any money too. we're on the same situation. where you have to loose money (or don't get more money) because anyone can drop way too deep inside an ennemy base.

I'd love to see marine drops that would only be allowed everywhere except behind the support towers. (witch still allows you offensive drops !) I don't ask a remove of the hability.

And I did notice the surrent state of basic defences (if you do invest in a lot of upgrades in static defences.) Also wanna point out that static defences won't make you win games they are just an awfull thorn in your opponent's ass.

But your opponent will eventually get through (cause of endless minerals form the center of the map. after the SD)



I thank you a lot for this clearer post.
I also wanna point out that if you bring me new plausible arguments I can be convinced. I'm not stubborn (at least I don't think so).
Most of all I wanna understand the points (that I do think) are not balanced.

But yet, people only have explain me that a ghost needs to be able to instakill a HT with 2 EMP but without arguments, just personal opinion.
And people explained me how to defend against drops (witch was not my point)

@ dr Lolotor & Raiden your posts warms my heart I'l send a post tomorrow I need some sleep right now :smile:

_________________
For Ayur !


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PostPosted: 17 May 2018, 22:57 
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@Raiden@DrLoL

- 2 to 3 Years?
Firstly, you are clutching at straws with the 2-3 year argument. Fine he had the map on his own 2 years, but was heavily involved prior to this in the thomulf days as an editor. Still its been a long time, and as of yet, there has been no lag improvement. You can say you have been working on stuff, that's great - but saying stuff is one thing, seeing it is another----> which brings me onto Rank Update

- RANK Updated
Ok sure its a hard fix. Got no issue with that. I've already stated I don't have the time or knowledge to do anything myself in editor, so I appreciate it isn't easy. HOWEVER, don't promise it will be updated in October, then in November and ill quote "sure it will be implemented in next patch". Selective memory you say, ironic.

- ISOLATION
Come on DrLOL. I was the first to write on the old forum suggesting a beta team involving experienced players from the active clans at the time (didn't include myself in those suggestions). Also from there, you know why I left the forum and that was Raiden giving me the ultimate insult in that Beta Forum-->Topic is probably still there, ill quote "you have never done anything for MA". It was from here I gave up on posts, and yes have a sour taste over it. Also re beta team including some of my mates: well again you have selective memory. They were willing to commit hard to that but communication broke down on both sides. Need I mention Rageypoo's polite request to get observer functions so he could stream and make the game more popular? They have it on US. Do we have it here? No. Also Ragey is upset about it as well, some I'm not sure what you said. Gustav leaving beta? Paul leaving beta aswell? The list goes on.

I'll also add, when I was on beta team, not once did Raiden pm me with a question on a subject, or ask me to a test game.

-BALANCE and TONE
So the reason I've made my opinion quite strongly here is because basically, and as you have confirmed, would think this topic has some good suggestions in it. I've tried to outline why in my opinion they aren't valid.

In Summary, and i've said this before, a little communication and inclusion would go a long way.
Nevertheless, based on the way you both recall events, your defensive stance on the map's shortcomings, and, ill paraphrase, "we aren't developing the map for 10 premaders", it's clear that you don't give AF about some dudes who have played this game a long long time and that's a shame.


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PostPosted: 17 May 2018, 23:06 
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@Artanis

Anytime you wanna go for a pub and chat online shoot me a pm (If you want).

Bnet ID: ExCaL#2981


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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 00:08 
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@Excal.

There is no need to bring all this history into this topic.

Back that time many weird things were going on and i was receiving a lot of pm's, which were aiming into creating messed up situations out of nowhere.

One of them things that took place that time was "believing in lies" without first confirming if the information was true or not. We are not here to play the "broken phone" into who said what, i never took advice from the person you mentioned when you requested to retire from beta team, and this is the truth. I don't mind saying "Yes i did that" trust me, im not someone who will hide behind lies, i always prefer the truth.

I did said that i will implement a fix about the rank bug in one of the next updates, this is true, but i already mentioned the reasons i haven't in my previous post.

Tpk left and this surprised us all, because 3 days ago we were having test games and he never mentioned anything about wanting to leave or being frustrated. Still he said that he is available for any test games that will take place on the new version and we thank him.

So in order to keep everything clean between beta team and all community members, we first (the betas) must be honest and discuss or inform before we make up or say an important or big decision, i believe we agree over this, because this is the best way to keep good communication, even after a player decides to leave from a certain group or clan.

Me personally i don't have or keep hard feelings towards anyone, we are part of this game and mistakes that took place, gotta stay behind in order to move on.

Thank you.

EDIT: About game balance, there is not favoring towards public players only, both pub and premade players are taken into account before making changes, but sometimes certain "over-powered tactics" which own totally public semi-good players, need changes for better gameplay balance.


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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 00:24 
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Holy shit, artanis you must enjoy English class if you can manage to type that much just about marine arena. Anyone who read his whole thing has got to be given a cookie.


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