Marine Arena


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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 09:49 
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ExCaL wrote: I've tried to outline why in my opinion they aren't valid.
ExCaL wrote: @Artanis Anytime you wanna go for a pub and chat online shoot me a pm (If you want).

I thank you for that, And I'd love to talk more about it (in the topic. Because when I'm logged in startcraft, I play MA xD )

Because this kind of discuss cannot be develloped very well with people that share the same idea. You need opposit point of view in order to moove forward.
And it seems you're capable of debate. So please share your thougths.

Valhalla wrote: Holy shit, artanis you must enjoy English class if you can manage to type that much just about marine arena. Anyone who read his whole thing has got to be given a cookie.
Well I had enough of raging alone and explaining all this to my mate (that ran out of explanations very quickly), and I figured that the best place to debate was here . So here I am =)

My objective is to quit raging on some reccurent plays. (by changing it a bit if it's necessary or just players explaining me the costs and why it is this way)

And yes I loved english class. I also watch series in VO witch helps a lot. (I'm french so I can translate you what I write if you ask me (IDK if it yould be easyer for you))

@Raiden
Raiden wrote: [...] making EMP to only "Remove energy" is indeed a counter already[...]. But, "EMP" damage is needed and further more in situations like "HK SPAM" [...]
Here we do think exactly the same about this situation. I have found myself forced to go EMP against mass HK cause snipe was too slow taking them down (even if you successfully land snipes.)

Raiden wrote: Keep in mind that adding "Health upgrades" to your hero can overcome the "EMP" since damage dealt if the ghost player does not upgrade "Hero damage" will keep alive your caster hero.
Yes that's the conclusion I came to, I had a question about that : how much impact the "marine upgrade attack" and "merc upgrade attack" on the overall damage of the EMP?

Cause the infestor is a good exmple in this case, for a fresh ghost (with 0/0 upgrades) against a fresh infestor (also 0/0) 2 EMPs insta kill him, but if he buys 1 HP hero upgrade (as you said) he will in deed survive.
Witch could be a good solution if marine and merc upgrade damage don't boost the EMP damage too much (I'll do more tests tonight) but, if he can overcome the HP you get by upgrading HP hero by upgrading his army and not the ghost, it starts to be dicy.

The HT is not in this case at all. Because he need 7 upgrades in health hero in order to survive to a fresh (0/0 upgrade) ghost. (maybe because he have shield and that kinda boosts the EMP does on him ? I don't have investigate it yet.)

Raiden wrote: About Merc Marines, one thing that can be done is add drop charges that will be available per player. [...] for example 10-15 [...] drops per player. [...]
Like this players will no longer drop without caring and pick their drops more carefully since the number will be limited, while now players drop even to kill just 1-2 elites/heroes that are on the back without army support.

I think it might solve my point in deed.
(people will always be allowed to drop too far (in my opinion) in the back of an ennemy base)

But it will have conséquences for their options overall about the rest of the game.
Because they will have to choose between the (win gamble) of try to get those solo hero / elite.

And the fact that they couldn't do both without caring would balance it, I agree ^^

Raiden wrote: Overall its good to discuss your concerns about game balance and bring it up here at forums for further feedback.
You can count on me if this topic results (like I feel it did) on good argumentation and consideration. :smile:


@Dr Lolotor
Dr Lolotor wrote: I have more or less read already all this thread, but that started to be lengthy and going everywhere, so difficult to answer also :lol:
Yeah I agree I was working on a bit summary of the 5 first pages to up the topic for players that didn't wanna read the whole thing. (witch I totally understands)

Dr Lolotor wrote: THey are early almost useless, but can be deadly from middle game with teched marines.
I agree.

Dr Lolotor wrote: I think their price is right cause you are not sure 100% to reach your objective but at some point it is an easy way to force savior for example.
I agree

Dr Lolotor wrote: A limited utilization of them will force people to use them wisely maybe (maybe 10 to 15 max /people in a game).
You join with Raider's idea about it witch I agree too.

Dr Lolotor wrote: I played enough game vs you Artanis&Phoenix to know you are quite good players. I would say your strenght is probably the teamplay, which makes always a difficult team to beat.
Thank you very much, I was kinda hurt by the whole lesson about team play from Excal. (but things like that happens on the internet don't worry)

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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 16:00 
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instead of a limit to the drops just make the merc marines have a bounty of 6. that way 1 drop feeds 60 and 5 drops feeds 300. thats quite substantial i think.

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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 16:17 
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I don't actually see a problem with drops. If you are in a position to win vs drops it either means you had won already and had the minerals to waste, or you have out skilled your opponent by catching them off guard. It adds a great dynamic generally in the game by being able to snipe heroes and merc compounds but with great risk and reward. I believe nerfing them would be dumbing down the game.


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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 16:17 
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Valhalla wrote: Holy shit, artanis you must enjoy English class if you can manage to type that much just about marine arena. Anyone who read his whole thing has got to be given a cookie.
I am gonna rate my top ten posts of the thread now, this is nr one; tldr posts wont be taken into account

to also bring value to my post, merc marines have never been reported as an issue, ever, or felt like it even. if u cant keep units at ur compound and a planetary in lategame u deserve to lose, securing ur base is part of the game, because in the end the game is about taking out the BASE not the ARMY right?

P.S. just to add this somewhere:
anyone who F2's and then gets dropped i think should realize what is the issue

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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 16:20 
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TpkPaul wrote: I don't actually see a problem with drops. If you are in a position to win vs drops it either means you had won already and had the minerals to waste, or you have out skilled your opponent by catching them off guard. It adds a great dynamic generally in the game by being able to snipe heroes and merc compounds but with great risk and reward. I believe nerfing them would be dumbing down the game.
it wud indeed remove another high-risk high-reward skill option of which u need good gamesense for to make it work vs good players;
if u spend 450 on a drop and u dont kill shit thats a LOT of money, defending those drops on the other hand is very easy and all u need in most situations is a working brain; furthermore in other situations it gives a marine player one utility skill that pure merc players who in general have more utility with their units cant take to their advantage, because if your marines are really strong an enemy air player will have to spend a lot on defence or have a close eye on his compound for example, that gives u one way to punch back

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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 16:21 
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+1 crow well said

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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 16:27 
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limiting it to 15 drops per game........ if u reach a point where u use 15 of them per game u invested 2250 minerals already i only see a few situations. either you are far behind and are a retard cus u keep dropping them and it clearly isnt working or you keep getting value on ur drops and ur enemy is utterly retarded for not being able to defend against them after u doing the same basic thing to him in one game for the 15th time and needs to be dropped another 15 times before he seems to understand this basic mechanic.

marine arena has not ONE single limiting facor in the game and this would be the first one keep that in mind with a change like that; by that i mean everything (in non sd even saviour) can be switched to /used /built /whatever, besides merc evolves; and this would be the first such thing, i strongly vote against it.

if a player is that good with marine drops to use them successfully against every player on the map he deserves the win too and this forces players to keep their guard; its already making compound defence too easy that u dont have them in sd

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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 23:19 
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+1 crow


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PostPosted: 18 May 2018, 23:49 
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+1 on crow.

if i drop someone,(cause i like drops ) first of all i check that my marines have attack more

then 20 (not 20 upgrades ) and ofc all speed upgrades and why not range upgrades.

to have all that, if i don't get feeded from some noob, it takes more then 40 minutes game.

to the conclusion , if someone goes pure marine upgrades , you have to check after 40 minute

mark your base for 20 more minutes, cause on sd drops doesn't exist.

ps: marine drops are ok

hf guys


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PostPosted: 19 May 2018, 08:01 
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Exactly what chris said. At most its 30 ninutes you have to worry about drops

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