Marine Arena


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PostPosted: 11 Oct 2019, 17:45 
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we'll see !


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PostPosted: 11 Oct 2019, 17:45 
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I personally dont think spawn time is the way to go for air. Also 10 -> 7 is like a 50% increase which is very drastic (6 per minute vs 9 per 63 sec). Thats a free perma chrono boost that can stack.


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PostPosted: 11 Oct 2019, 17:46 
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BigCheif wrote: we'll see !
At least we trying to balance Air Mercenaries as much as possible!


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PostPosted: 11 Oct 2019, 17:47 
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Eyyo wrote: I personally dont think spawn time is the way to go for air. Also 10 -> 7 is like a 50% increase which is very drastic (6 per minute vs 9 per 63 sec). Thats a free perma chrono boost that can stack.
We can try with the spawn time increase, or without it at first and see how it is.


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PostPosted: 11 Oct 2019, 17:52 
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Eyyo wrote: This patch is looking great. Also really enjoy the format and reason for everything, makes it easier to follow. Fantastic job.
Most changes are looking good, agree with that

but the gas cap
I dont see the point of beeing limited to 2 ghs, and agree with eyyo here...
Eyyo wrote: as for the ghost argument, ghosts get rly energy efficent late game so they can handle a lot of heroes with emps and cheap snipes if played well. The only hero that gets problematic imo is the double ultralisk which will require several snipes each while wrecking havoc on the enemy army. In this case you could just reduce the armour scaling of the unit, making it so that it can be hurt by armies as well, or limiting it to 1 per player.

And if you limit gas to 15, in the very most games that changes nothing, its really rare to reach that, but whats the point of making the gas cap then? It allows way more heroes than Ghost/Nova can handle by themself (the idea behind that cap) and needs to be answered by more heroes yourself. So if it is 15 or higher why the gas cap at all? And in a few rare situation it still can have an impact, something like 100 or no gas cap seems more accurate, and wont hurt anyone.


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PostPosted: 11 Oct 2019, 18:08 
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IMoGsPrime wrote:
Eyyo wrote: This patch is looking great. Also really enjoy the format and reason for everything, makes it easier to follow. Fantastic job.
Most changes are looking good, agree with that

but the gas cap
I dont see the point of beeing limited to 2 ghs, and agree with eyyo here...
Eyyo wrote: as for the ghost argument, ghosts get rly energy efficent late game so they can handle a lot of heroes with emps and cheap snipes if played well. The only hero that gets problematic imo is the double ultralisk which will require several snipes each while wrecking havoc on the enemy army. In this case you could just reduce the armour scaling of the unit, making it so that it can be hurt by armies as well, or limiting it to 1 per player.

And if you limit gas to 15, in the very most games that changes nothing, its really rare to reach that, but whats the point of making the gas cap then? It allows way more heroes than Ghost/Nova can handle by themself (the idea behind that cap) and needs to be answered by more heroes yourself. So if it is 15 or higher why the gas cap at all? And in a few rare situation it still can have an impact, something like 100 or no gas cap seems more accurate, and wont hurt anyone.
2 Ghosts cost 4 gas, while the cap that was first written was 6.
Indeed having a big number feels and looks like unlimited gas to the player, so there's no difference, and the idea behind this is to give to "each player on a team" a certain amount of gas in order to apply any strategy that has in mind.
In a normal game, more than 4-5 is rarely needed, while in a premade game more than 6 might needed and that's true. At the same time, we can apply a number of "10 gas per player" which translates into "2 ghosts + 1 Nova + 1 Colossus" or "1 Dark Archon + 1 ghost + 2 HK". More combinations exist, these 2 were just a quick example in order to see the possibilities having 10 gas per player.
The option to purchase and control multiple heroes is there, just we need to have a limit in order to make sure the balance will not break.


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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 06:34 
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Finally hellions got nerfed.

And thank god oracles are untouched.


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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 15:52 
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Raiden wrote:
Crow wrote: Ok I will get to the rest later but the gas thing is a damn joke. there is like 3-4 players in this game who are able to control multiple lategame heroes at once and it is because they are FUCKING GODS at it ok??
disabling increased purchase of gas doesnt only limit lategame possibilities but is also a fkn offence to a game which is supposed to reward skill.

and lategame u are supposed to exploit every possibility in the game which means including hero play especially in super lategame and if the enemy has literally no other ideas than going ghost against it then well he s gonna need 5 ghs and he better learn how to fucking play them. the only thing this change rewards is players who cant handle more than 1 hero at once and the change be a damn joke
Would be an option if the player could have 5 ghosts, but since the limit is to 2 that's not an option.
The amount of gas can be increased more, but there has to be an limit. If 10 gas seems better, then will make it 10 gas, or 15, but there was to be a limit, like in everything into the game.

Also, chill there Crowie, this is a "before the update" post, in order to see the changes, give feedback and make the required changes to this post. There's no need of going wild :)
Well i take this change quite to heart because it is so precicely pointed at those few people who are capable of playing the game like this.
Ok let me walk u through how the counterplay works then: 2 players, so: 4 ghosts, 2 novas, 2 DAs, 4 phoenixes/2 tempest , 6 oracles. Those are just the few obvious hero counters, there are many more depending on strats and situations and specific hero interactions. now all of this is just the counter options. the hero player investing heavily into heroes also means that his army is weaker so ontop of having all of these counters the antihero player also has a stronger army. give me one reasonable point wherethefuck a gas limit makes sense

edit: and as eyyo says this will only affect the TOP level pres (like the actual best players in the game playing against each other) and noone asked for it and I speak for others as well that this change would be strongly against the idea of a game which rewards skill. so WHY

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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 16:01 
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Raiden wrote:
IMoGsPrime wrote:
Eyyo wrote: This patch is looking great. Also really enjoy the format and reason for everything, makes it easier to follow. Fantastic job.
Most changes are looking good, agree with that

but the gas cap
I dont see the point of beeing limited to 2 ghs, and agree with eyyo here...
Eyyo wrote: as for the ghost argument, ghosts get rly energy efficent late game so they can handle a lot of heroes with emps and cheap snipes if played well. The only hero that gets problematic imo is the double ultralisk which will require several snipes each while wrecking havoc on the enemy army. In this case you could just reduce the armour scaling of the unit, making it so that it can be hurt by armies as well, or limiting it to 1 per player.

And if you limit gas to 15, in the very most games that changes nothing, its really rare to reach that, but whats the point of making the gas cap then? It allows way more heroes than Ghost/Nova can handle by themself (the idea behind that cap) and needs to be answered by more heroes yourself. So if it is 15 or higher why the gas cap at all? And in a few rare situation it still can have an impact, something like 100 or no gas cap seems more accurate, and wont hurt anyone.
2 Ghosts cost 4 gas, while the cap that was first written was 6.
Indeed having a big number feels and looks like unlimited gas to the player, so there's no difference, and the idea behind this is to give to "each player on a team" a certain amount of gas in order to apply any strategy that has in mind.
In a normal game, more than 4-5 is rarely needed, while in a premade game more than 6 might needed and that's true. At the same time, we can apply a number of "10 gas per player" which translates into "2 ghosts + 1 Nova + 1 Colossus" or "1 Dark Archon + 1 ghost + 2 HK". More combinations exist, these 2 were just a quick example in order to see the possibilities having 10 gas per player.
The option to purchase and control multiple heroes is there, just we need to have a limit in order to make sure the balance will not break.
Ok this further makes my point that it will be like 5 people affected by the change and that it will be in the most epic games they play because when do u get an ultra lategame where one player has lets say a nova, an odin and a DA. having a cap in these games is then plain stupid and let these few people at least enjoy the game if they are good enough to pull off strats like that.
And keep in mind if some noob gets fed and buys 20 gas and gets heroes off of that it doesnt mean he wins because the whole point is in keeping them alive and using them effectively at the same time. a noob cant do this. 99% of players here cant do this. so why punish the 1%?

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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 16:11 
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Oh and on another note about the gas.
Back in the days we didnt have the issue of "balancing" pres and its why most of the best players are old gen.
It is because we had to LEARN TO CARRY instead of relying on a carry every game and staying mediocre forever because the only time these players will not have a carry is if they are against other mediocre players so they wont develop their skill that way either.
So when you get a noob as a carry u might not even mind, because, well it's better to have a pre like this than no pre at all.
This means though that that player most likely also has mediocre hero and antihero play so you have to do that yourself and get a ghost or nova. now lets say u also fall behind because ur mate is feeding ur flank and the others are avoiding u. now u need a hero to make up for ur difference in upgrades. so lets say u get a DA.
now thats already 8 gas. come ultra lategame and u need to be finishing off teams and u still carrying while ur guy is sitting around a moving once a minute. u are fighting 4 other players now fo example. u have the same spawn rate as each of them. U will need an odin to kill them without dying. Why keep our carry here from getting an Odin to win just because he s better than everyone and carrying some guy's ass at the same time? his teammate cant help him by getting the nova instead because then everything will die in the carry's army because the noobmate cant handle the nova for shit.

Just imagine this situation. Should we really punish the carry? or maybe that gas limit is fkn retarded?

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