Marine Arena


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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 16:16 
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On another note a suggestion for oracles:
Remove blink (right now if u play them correctly they cant die) and instead give them a "self" stasis ward abil. What i mean is make them untargetable and immortal for 2 secs but disable their atk and move. basically as if they were in a stasis trap. this can be used to dodge abilities but doesnt teleport them through half the map at the same time.
otherwise just increase nrg cost or cd on blink further

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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 16:30 
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+1 on the rest of the patch although i can't quite figure out the stalker change if you could please elaborate how the change will affect gameplay more i d appreciate that.
with phantoms not getting a nerf though this will make stalkers even less viable. they are already very hard to play properly and then give little reward apart from their high utility (they die against pretty much every other merc and marines in the game in a full on engagement)
weakening them further and still not providing a nerf for the super broken phantoms will just make it even moe of a phantoms or a-move arena instead of rewarding active army micro and high utility play.

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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 19:25 
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Ok, let me put it this way because I see a lot of answers while I clearly wrote this change will not be added.

Has anyone ever used more than 10 gas? If yes, please do share a "recent" replay.
The games where a player used more than 10 gas, are very, VERY unlikely to occur, and there's a lot of long time players active to confirm this.

Now balance wise, because the player gives minerals for the gas, this doesn't mean that the gas should be unlimited.
Having powerful units that can break the balance if these units don't have a limit, is never good. Let me share an example:
Back during the first 2 years of MA, reapers, Vikings, banshees, all these elites were without a limit, I repeat NO LIMIT.
Anyone remembering the "banshee cloak and snipe strategy? Destroying base defenses and having 15-20 banshees cloaked and sniping CC?
Yes, the player did gave minerals for the banshee's and for the reapers and everything else, but having them unlimited was clearly imbalanced.

This is what I am saying right now, how many heroes you believe we should cap the gas?
Please give me a number, 10 gas? 12 gas? Just observe your gas usage and give a number, that's all, nothing more, nothing less.
Having unlimited gas "just to have it" even if there's not a chance for a player to use 15 gas or 20 gas makes no sense.

These are the points I wanted to underline, because many things in the past were "unlimited" but they changed for a better balance.

Also to make it clear and avoid any misunderstandings, this update WILL NOT include any gas change, it will be unlimited like it is, we are just discussing it, even if there's not a chance for a gas limit to be ever added.


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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 21:27 
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We dont need a gas cap fcol lol


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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 21:31 
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Mercenaries:

Mercenary Boost Upgrades:
Good

Marauder:
Agree

Baneling Mercenary:
good


Zealot Mercenary:
Reduced Base Shield Armor from 2 to 1 (This change is already live since latest update)
(Reason: 1 shield armor instead of 2 makes zealots more balanced during very early game, there’s no need for a unit to be tanky right away from the very beginning with 0 investment).

--> Yes and no. melee sucks early game unless they have some support (such as DT). They can only do a good job if you can sandwich a team or attack behind another army, which is working only on unexperienced player. But concaves around middle beaon and on hills are very unfavorable to melee in general. They never do fair trade against a big mass. About this nerf I would say it affects less zealot because it applies only on shield armor and Zealots are also a bit better opening compared to zerglings.
On next map, due a to a bigger size, maybe that will balance melee (larger concaves)


Zergling Mercenary:
Reduced Base Life Armor from 2 to 1 (This change is already live since latest update)
(Reason: Same like Zealots, starting melee needs to be less tanky)

--> Can be acceptable for zealots, but not for zerglings. I think they were the harder opening mercenary, and this makes even worse. I do not take them anymore from this change due to beeing very bad. Upgraded Crackling can be good but they needs to go to this point ;). I think they would need at least the free "surrenal gland" in compensation. In counter part you might raise to 800 the morph price.

Stalker/lancer
ok with that reasonning

Firebat:

DevilDog:
Increased Base Damage from 17 to 20
Added with every Mercenary Attack Upgrade, a +1 damage to “Plasma Burn” Passive Ability.
(Reason: Just like Firebats, DD are following the buffs to bring them back into the game)

Let see if they are going to be op cause plasma burn is cumulative and armor ignore.


Hybrid Reaver:
Hybrids execute 2 attack counts each time they attack.
Attack Number 1 has a 0.35 Splash Fraction & 0.7 Splash Radius in a 45-degree angle.
Attack Number 2 has a 0.35 Splash Fraction & 0.7 Splash Radius in a 180-degree angle.
Increased on Attack number 1 Splash Fraction to 30% and reduced Splash Radius to 0.35
Reduced on Attack number 2 Splash Fraction to 50% and Splash Radius Remains the same 0.7
(Reason: Separating Hybrid Reaver’s attacks into a “lighter splash & a heavier splash” since the attacks don’t share the same Arc values.)

This seems very complicated for me. Can it be more simple like 2 attacks the same (with an average of the 2 attacks you present ;) )

Goliath Mercenary:
good they needed this early help.

Immortal Mercenary:
same tahn goliath that was unfair compared to other units

Mutalisk:
Reduced Base Damage from 18 to 14
Increased First bounce Splash Radius from 1.5 to 2.
Reduced Base Damage for “Second Bounce hit” from 9 to 7.
Increased Second bounce Splash Radius from 1.5 to 2.
Reduced Base Armor from 2 to 0.
(Reason: Reducing base damage, but increase the area of effect can balance Mutalisks better. Armor is also reduced to 0 to remove tank effect of Air Mercenaries.)

Seems a big nerf but increased spawn made them a bit too strong. I am not a pro with them, but i take them in some pubs and i still can fight against golaiths. They are super fast making them very good for map control

Wraith:
ok

Void Ray:
ok

Heroes & Ultimate Heroes:

Tempest Ultimate Hero:
ok


Thor Hero:
ok

Ultralisk Hero:
ok

Phoenix Hero:
2nd Weapon is removed, Phoenix now has 1 Weapon which attacks both ground and air targets.
Reduced Base Graviton Beam Cast Range from 7 to 6.5.
(Reason: Phoenix could attack both “Air & Ground” at the same time, and the only way to disable this was to also disable “attack while moving” which is Phoenix’s unique ability. Therefore 1 weapon is removed and Phoenix can still attack ground & air targets, but not at the same time.)

I was always dubitative about this unit beeing able to attack ground (it was unablle to do it for long time, I think it was for good balance reasons ;) ). They are super strong in opening cause they can take some feed and also counter every hero and elites coming in game. Particularly on the first 10 min they are likely unkillable due to an increased range and have almost no proper counters.
I am worry about the range of the unique weapon. If it is 7, that will make them a bit too strong vs ground units?



Ghost Hero:
Dunno about this revert.

Elite Mercenaries:

Raven Elite Mercenary:
ok good

Viking Elite Mercenary:
Reduced Base Splash Radius from 1.1 to 0.7
Increased Base Splash Fraction from 40% to 50%.
Added in “Ripwave Missiles” Upgrade a Splash Radius increase by +0.5 from +0.4
Reduced in “Neosteel Chassis” Upgrade Splash Fraction from 55% to 40%
(Reason: Following the Air Mercenaries nerf on Armor, Air Elites AoE Values need to change in order to be more balanced against the Air Mercenaries)

Let see

Corruptor Elite Mercenary:
Reduced Base Splash Radius from 0.9 to 0.8
Reduced Base Splash Fraction from 70% to 50%.
Increased in “Pathogen Delivery” Upgrade Splash Fraction bonus from 30% to 50%.
(Reason: Following the Air Mercenaries nerf on Armor, Air Elites AoE Values need to change in order to be more balanced against the Air Mercenaries)

Let see


Reaper Elite Mercenary:
ok

Arena Shops:
Each Player can purchase 2 extra infested Savior Per game.
(Reason: No need to have unlimited Savior purchases per player, if a player reached to a point where buying saviors is the only way to stay into the game, then its very unlikely for that player to win the game)

I also think everything must be limited in a way. Games must follow rules and unlimited things makes some imbalances.


Gas purchase, is limited to 3 per player. (6 gas in total) "Change Will not be Added, New Value is needed for Maximum Gas per Player"
(Reason: Every player will be able to hire a certain amount of heroes. Scenarios where players were able to purchase unlimited heroes are not needed, and can easily imbalance the game since a player will require 4-5 ghosts in order to counter all these heroes. Also, heroes pack a lot of power and we don’t want to see games where 1 player is controlling 10 different heroes)

Like Saviors, this msut be limited in a way cause of course having 4 ultra heroes on a player in a 3h game is not what i call "balanced". Many argued about this point, question of philosophy I guess. If a number is calling i would say 6-7 gas max.


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PostPosted: 12 Oct 2019, 22:37 
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I see the argument of the gas limit since unlimited ellties would be broken. However we already have a limit on how many of each hero you can use. We would need a gas cap if u could spam 7 collosi but since the cap is 2 and 1 for each ultimate/spellcaster it looks fine. Getting a new hero aside from the gas cost is expensive and hard enough to make viable as is.

If anything i'd be for a gas cost reduction. It doesnt seem to break the game that you can have a farm ellite and a ghost early without additional costs. So if you have a hero (which are essentially the late game versions of ellites) i dont think you should be more punished for wanting a ghost beside it, compared to the guy who can spam out 2 tanks, 2 sentries and 2 ravens for no additional cost.

Remember that heroes need to be microed and managed closely. A cc can only pump out about one hero per minute and if you have a lot of them, you could definitely lose them faster than that. Having more heroes already have the cost of being hard to manage, requiring specific upgrades and having to get respawned. Upgrades will never go away. Over time a hero that dies every 2 encounters (from an equally skilled ghost player) might soak up all the income from a player whereas someone investing in upgrades keeps getting stronger.

Besides, if you hero spam and lose all of them to 2 nova emps, ur just dead. From one quick ability.


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PostPosted: Today, 09:19 
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Please don`t cap the gas.
The rest of update looks good.


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PostPosted: Today, 12:56 
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Lolotor u dont even have 3 hour games. and I seen u struggle to control a single dt which you are playing since years. this change would literally have no effect on u at all so stop advocating for it and if ultras are oh so much the problem then cap em at 1 pp also fyi cap on ultras rn is 2 pp so what all people here seem to miss is that just cus gas is unlimmited, heroes are still limited so you cant whine about balance in regards to "too many heroes", of one type? maybe. but thats what we have the limit for. like with the limit on elites, or are we going to limit minerals as well now cus technically u can buy all elites with enough minz?? this completeley invalidates the 20 banshee argument and please people to control even an ht and a festor at once to the point where u dont lose them and use them effectively maybe 3-4 people can do so yeah the rest are just whining about a cap cus they bad. take it and suck on it

lings are a better opener than zealots. before and after patch

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PostPosted: Today, 13:13 
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pre last night, used 10 gas. DISAGREE with CAP

Linking replay in discord because its too big to attach here


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PostPosted: Today, 13:24 
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Crow wrote: On another note a suggestion for oracles:
Remove blink (right now if u play them correctly they cant die) and instead give them a "self" stasis ward abil. What i mean is make them untargetable and immortal for 2 secs but disable their atk and move. basically as if they were in a stasis trap. this can be used to dodge abilities but doesnt teleport them through half the map at the same time.
otherwise just increase nrg cost or cd on blink further
+10000


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