Marine Arena


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 02:43 
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Reformed wrote: Look, Ghost is supposed to counter other heroes. Right now in a EMP vs Leech fight, the Ghost isn't looking very strong.
The Infestor unburrows in 0.5 seconds. Leech has instant travel time. Average human reaction time is 0.25 seconds (if you are concentrating). That means if you are controlling your army, you have 0.25 seconds to swap to your Ghost and throw 2 EMPs if you want to kill the Festor. That's pretty hard to achieve.

Also, air is almost impossible to balance due to the stacking abillity. Air is not weak now, it can feel very weak, if you are solo and you get countered. But air is still pretty op in a teamplay scenario. It's extremely hard to counter an air + Queen/DA + Goli + Nova composition.
Air is just horrible designed imo. You have to invest tons of minerals into counters, if someone goes air, it's not like that for any other merc, and I don't think that's healthy mechanics.

Btw, since when have I been a Phantom player?
Ill edit your post for you. "Air is weak right now."


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 02:49 
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Eyyo wrote: I have played plenty of air and festor in my days. With festor's burrow i think you severely overestimate the ghost in that matchup. The festor player would be unburrowed, already have the leech targeted over the ghost and spam click just as it exits the ground. A ghost player that hasnt scanned that particular area would have no time to react before his emp is disabled, or in a best case scenario, be able to throw 1 emp that has travel time to then reset both heroes energy.

As for air i have said many times that the quality of games suffer when air is picked, regardless of the player's skill level. If it's a bad player they just feed. if it's a great player with great support, it can feel very polarizing to play against. Air in its nature is very counter heavy and therefore it is very difficult for an air and a ground player to both feel happy about a trade. Instead what you find is one avoiding the other for most of the game, which i do not find particularly exciting for 40 minutes.

Some may find that waiting to go merc last or ensure that all teams have a goliath player in case of air adds depth. I disagree with that.
Equally, I have had some of my most fun games when facing air players, as well as using air. But this is the *I like to make phantoms therefore nerf air argument*

I also totally disagree that it makes it passive a game. If I have an air player as a neighbour im licking my lips - and that was 2 patches ago. Currently, air isn't viable sadly.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 07:48 
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ExCaL wrote:Ill edit your post for you. "Air is weak right now."
Actually I said the exact opposite.

But maybe you are right. Air is very fun and interactive to play against. I loved the air-meta where at least 1 player couldn't buy a merc for 40 min every game, because 'what if' someone was to go air. That's fun. It's also nice to have the casual 45 min break until SD, if someone goes air. Just enough time for a game of DotA.

If someone goes air. You HAVE to either get golis, 2 Thors (1 and it will just get lifted by a 400 mineral Nix), or a ton of elites. Wow, such great mechanics.

Pleases buff air. Actually remove all other mercs, remove marines, elites and heroes, make it a 5v5 game and call it Starbattle.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 10:25 
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You pay 1800 for air. While people are using elites to farm youre saving up for air. At 10 min while youre still 700 away from air people buy mercs and get a nice lead, can move around the map and farm. At 20 you finally have enough for your air merc. Great. Now you can wait another 10 minutes for people to farm while you get mass so you can even do anything. At 30 you have your mass and finally your 0 0 air with the compound upgrades.

Now: at this point its common to be 3k behind. You invested 30 minutes and pretty much every single mineral (for mutas for example it was 1250 for merc compound ups 1800 for mut muts so total of 3000 just to get 0 0 mutas) so ill be damned if my air doesnt pack a punch. Thats the whole damn point of air. Whats the point of air costing 1800 if its not gonna do anything. Like you had time to scout the air player, prepare and plan and then instead of being ready with a counter (which btw is more than thors, golis or elites) you're appaled by how the 0 0 muta ball killed your 6 2 (insert merc here) ball and proceed to call imba.

Like wtf. What do you people want? Me to pay 1800 and then having such a shitty air merc that its basically impossible to come back from a 3k deficit or even 2k? How is that fair? The air haters literally are 100% aware of the fact air was going to get gutted with that nerf, they're not noobs, but they didn't care because it favors their style of play and agenda and that is just disgusting.

Are we going to balance now around what this or that group of individuals (not the community a GROUP) thinks needs to get nerfed because of their viewpoint? Should we nerf phantoms then as well? Damn i hate phantoms a lot but at least I learned how to play vs them and didn't go crying to raiden asking for a nerf. It's not how a healthy balance gets created.

Same thing happened with devil dogs. Viable for 2 days then nerfed again for supposedly being too strong when you could easily counter them if you played properly. Like can we for once set our biases aside and look at the game from an objective perspective and not through some senseless personal viewpoint.

@Raiden.
Regarding your comments on why elites got nerfed: elites were supposed to snowball. That was the whole point. So that if you wanted to go for pure value from the start you had to accept that you would behind because the other player risked his momey to make more money. Now if you risk your money it basically getting thrown down the drain because the guy just going for pure value will actually trade evenly head on vs your elites or heroes bar maybe the festor and ultimates. The consequence: no one goes for elites/heroes anymore. Hell just make hydras with 600 and you can be 100% sure it wont ever be the wrong play. In my opinion that is just stupid and has nothing to do with marine arena and how the game should be played. It should be dynamic with heroes and elites giving you opportunities to get an edge before the endgame where marines just shit on everything anyway.

So yeah this community needs to get it's shit together because currently it's just everyone trying to pull the game in the direction they want without any respect to wether it makes sense or not.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 10:46 
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ows wrote: The air haters literally are 100% aware of the fact air was going to get gutted with that nerf, they're not noobs, but they didn't care because it favors their style of play and agenda and that is just disgusting.
First of all, this argument is pathetic. It has nothing to do with my style of play, I have played air a lot, Daniels main style was air for a long time.

Again.. Air sucks if you are playing without a teammate. That's true. Air can stack, so they get heavily countered by splash damage. So if your air isn't working either you don't know how to split properly, or you just got countered too much while your teammate isn't helping you against these counters. Air is a teamplay merc. If your mate can't support your air, you are going to fail. If he can though, by killing elites/heroes, and you know how to split, everyone litterly has 0 chance to kill your air. You need some kind of AoE damage to kill air, because if not, all the units will just be shooting individual air units, because they stack.
Air also has to be weaker because of the mobillity and vision it offers.

Now, in my opinion not everything is about balance. It's about having a fun game. In a lot of cases balance makes the game more fun to play, but this is not the case for air.

It's not fun that one player on each time has to wait getting a merc, just in case someone gets air. It's not fun that you have to get tons of elites or heroes to counter the air. It's not like that for any other merc. It's not fun that you have to avoid a player for the whole game if he goes air. It's just not.. fun.

And lastly, you would usually not go directly for air. If you farm with unupgraded units, without elites or heroes for 20 min, your air shouldn't make you come back with ease.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 13:29 
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This must be one of the worst arguments I have ever seen. The reasoning for being against air - "its not about balance its about fun" LMFAO + "if you are solo its hard". As we have already seen here, some people like the air dynamic some don't.

I am going to bullet points for you to keep it really simple so you can grasp the concept of a 'balance discussion'.


- Raiden balances the map for public games and private games. He has said this before. Air used by pubs gets demolished (pre patch). Air currently in private games gets demolished. This is feedback from me and people like levi etc who use air - not from ling marine a movers.

- Marine Arena is a 2v2v2v2 format = team game. We are balancing now if things get tricky for someone solo? I see.

- Oneway is correct with the mineral point. Often if you are going air you are behind, so for it to be paper weak makes no sense at all


Now I could give you a list of ways of countering air but lets stay on topic. I find this sort of dialogue really unhelpful to Raiden and I agree with oneway.

Daniel has already admitted previously he likes being "controversial" in his arguments on balance. Reformed is now arguing on balance for what makes the game "fun for him" in a "solo format". Quality.


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 13:41 
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Okay, so now I see. Once I present you some good arguments, your brain can't handle it. First of all, playing a game is indeed about fun. What else? If you want balance, go play chess or something. I give you arguments, and your brain can't handle it, so you have to go personal. You are a grown ass man, acting like a baby. Whats next, kick me from premades again? Hahaha, you are pathetic


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 13:48 
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Reformed wrote: Okay, so now I see. Once I present you some good arguments, your brain can't handle it. First of all, playing a game is indeed about fun. What else? If you want balance, go play chess or something. I give you arguments, and your brain can't handle it, so you have to go personal. You are a grown ass man, acting like a baby. Whats next, kick me from premades again? Hahaha, you are pathetic
And this sums it up perfectly. Quality :D


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 13:55 
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Ive had a think and come up with a radical way to balance air - LETS MAKE IT FUN!


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PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 14:14 
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Ok guys, since the discussion moved away from infestor's leech ability, i created a new topic about general balance discussion, feel free to come up with any kind of arguements considering the game's balance.
No need to go wild, lets keep things polite and stay away from personal attacks.
Thank you guys


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